Sean Murray is the President and Chief Editor of deBanked and the founder of the Broker Fair Conference. Connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on twitter. You can view all future deBanked events here.
Articles by Sean Murray
That Voice on the Phone
November 9, 2023
When someone told me a tech company was using AI to have legitimate voice conversations with sales prospects over the phone, I was skeptical. Then I listened to some examples. The voice and interactions sounded so real that I became even more skeptical that I was even listening to AI. The technology behind it was EVE, a company founded in 2016 that actually uses pre-recorded human responses to engage with someone over the phone. If it sounded so human, that’s because the responses were in fact human voices. EVE’s system is not artificial intelligence in the current sense like ChatGPT. Instead, EVE is using a dialogue tree, a system of recorded responses that are played based upon the interpreted communication of the person. It understands what the person is saying and chooses the right response quickly. And speed is key, because according to Alex Skrypka, CEO of EVE.calls, people will feel that something is off if it takes longer than 1 second to receive a response to something that’s said. The trick is never having the customer figure out that they’re talking to a bot.
In the earlier days, this technology had limitations. EVE could only handle simple voice commands. That progressed, however, to where it could be the opening sales caller, getting prospects to the point where they were pre-qualified and passed onto a human. But by last year it was beginning to assist in closing deals. Skrypka believes that by next year it will advance to a level where it is closing independent deals all on its own and by 2027 will be considered not only an expert closer but also be able to up-sell the customer while doing it.
The possibilities call to mind a recent popular post on LinkedIn about one thing remaining constant in fintech despite all the advancements in automation is the demand by customers to want to talk to someone. But tech is now addressing that in ways previously thought unimaginable. Customers are already talking to AI agents through neural network technology like OpenAI’s ChatGPT, though mainly in text/chatbot form. As of September, however, ChatGPT was brought to life with a voice. The current options of Juniper, Breeze, Cove, Sky and Ember are a variety of synthetic male and female voices that ChatGPT can speak as but they don’t sound that synthetic when you listen to them. I could be fooled by Juniper.
According to Skrypka, the challenge with putting something like ChatGPT on the phone right now is that crucial response delay time. It’s going to give away that it’s an AI. For testing’s sake, I tried this out and found that while Juniper held up pretty well in a light conversation, she broke the immersion a few times when she had to think about something I said for 7 or 8 seconds.
Perhaps a voice bot, whether it be based on a dialogue tree or a neural network doesn’t have to be perfect 100% of the time anyway, just good enough to scale a business efficiently and cost effectively. EVE, for example, touts that it can handle up to 1 million calls per hour. Imagine how many sales representatives it would take to have 1 million phone conversations an hour.
To think that these capabilities are only going to get better! If customers continue to feel that talking to someone on the phone is necessary before making a big decision, the world of fintech will continue to serve them. But whether that sales person or customer service rep is really a person or a bot is something the customer may never know for sure.
Back to Business Lending in Canada
November 2, 2023
“There’s a need for products and services like ours across all cycles,” said Cato Pastoll, CEO of Loop, on the small business lending panel held at the Lenders Summit this week in Toronto.
It’s unclear what cycle the industry is in exactly. The Lenders Summit, put on every year by the Canadian Lenders Association, was not only sold out but packed wall to wall with more than 500 attendees. The tone was relatively upbeat despite Canada’s key interest rate holding steady at 5% and economic headwinds blowing in the background.
OnDeck Canada COO Harley Greenspoon said that his company just had their best October in four years and that they’ve returned back to pre-pandemic growth. “Demand is actually not the issue at all,” Greenspoon said.
Not only is the demand for business loans there but OnDeck Canada has not had to pass on the rising costs of capital thanks to greater efficiencies unlocked by reducing headcount and increasing automation.
Lauren Thompson, VP of Specialty Finance for Peoples Group, whose organization partners with fintechs and lenders, said that from a bird’s-eye view banks would probably continue to restrict capital being loaned to small businesses for the foreseeable future. “I don’t think that small businesses are best served through the traditional banking system,” said Thompson.
Pastoll of Loop pointed out an irony with this, that banks tend to under serve the underserved when they actually need it most. “90% of the private sector workforce is employed by small businesses so if you want to stimulate the economy, we as fintechs can do it faster…” Pastoll said.
Thompson explained that the traditional financial system can be hamstrung by reviewing data that is already stale such as financial reports that reflect a moment in time six months ago while a fintech lender has more of a live pulse on what’s going on.
Greenspoon of OnDeck Canada, for example, could rattle off the top of his head industries that are experiencing challenges, the most notable being transportation.
Finally, Pastoll was asked if Loop had contemplated ever having to deal with a high interest rate environment back when he founded the company almost nine years ago. Pastoll explained that his whole inspiration for founding Loop in the first place was to help small business owners precisely during difficult times. Both of his parents were small business owners and he had watched firsthand how hard it was to find financing.
“Again, I just think about what my parents had to go through,” he said.
Amazon’s Business Loan Program Relatively Flat, And The Company is Now Possibly the Largest MCA Broker?
October 29, 2023
Amazon’s seller lending program, in which the company extends working capital loans to Amazon sellers to buy inventory, has been somewhat flat this year. Its seller lending receivables in Q3 were unchanged from Q1, coming in at $1.2B. It had briefly gone up in Q2 to $1.3B.
Amazon rarely mentions its seller lending business which is but a blip compared to the $143B in net sales the company recorded in just the third quarter. Despite all this cash, Amazon relies on a $1.5B secured revolving credit facility with a lender in the same way many small business lenders do to facilitate this amount of loan volume.
deBanked has been tracking the company’s seller lending receivables balance since 2016.
Amazon’s separate merchant cash advance program is not counted as part of their selling lending program. Amazon partnered up with Parafin in November 2022 to offer MCAs to their clients. One consequence of that is that Amazon sellers talk publicly in the company’s Seller Central forums and this has been no exception. There, most mentions of Parafin have so far been less than flattering.
Much of the confusion reported by sellers is centered around the percentage collected from each sale. Unlike most MCA funding companies, which either withhold a percentage of card sales or debit a fixed daily amount that can later be trued-up upon request, Amazon was previously collecting its percentage “based on whether a seller had received any disbursements, automatic or manual, in the prior week.” However, that changed this past August, according to Amazon who published the following note in their forum:
Payment is deducted from your bank account based on your current Amazon disbursement schedule. If you receive disbursements weekly, payments for your cash advance will be deducted weekly. If you receive disbursements bi-weekly, payments for your cash advance will be deducted bi-weekly. In instances where Amazon sales data is delayed in reaching Parafin, Parafin combines the payment amount with the subsequent payment to avoid debits happening on unexpected days of the week. Sellers whose payments are impacted by these instances receive emails from Parafin detailing the expected payment dates and adjusted amounts.
…
“Your merchant cash advance will be paid off automatically over time as you make successive sales-based payments. Because your offer is determined in part by your past business performance, our estimate is that you’ll pay your merchant cash advance within the estimated timeframe stated when you accepted it. If your sales ramp up or slow down, your payment amounts (and therefore the estimated payment period) may ramp up or slow down with them. The payment rate itself will not change and is a fixed percentage of monthly sales.”
Although there is some irony to Amazon playing the role of MCA broker and MCA customer service, Amazon also refers its loan-interested sellers to Lendistry and Marcus by Goldman Sachs. All of this activity started late last year just as Amazon was on pace to max out its own credit facility with its own lending program. Since then, the company’s flat business loan receivable balance might suggest that Amazon’s seller financing business is actually growing, just not on its own balance sheet since its brokering the deals out.
So who’s the biggest MCA broker in the US? Amazon generated $514B in net sales in 2022. $1B in MCA deals wouldn’t be so hard for a company already doing about a billion a year in loans. It would be quite ironic to discover that the biggest MCA broker in 2023 was Jeff Bezos, but it’s a real possibility.
Addressing Misconceptions in the MCA Business
October 18, 2023
New to the MCA business? Think you got it figured out? Let’s visit some of the stranger beliefs and misconceptions I’ve encountered over the last year. (Not legal advice as I am not an attorney).
My broker/funding company’s legal address as recorded with the Secretary of State or courts is my personal information and no one is allowed to know it or share it on the internet.
False. The business address you place on file with governmental authorities or courts is generally available to the public. If you opt to use your home address as your business address, just know that it will be open to everyone to see and share. Additionally, starting Jan 1. 2024, any broker soliciting merchants that reside in Florida will have to take the additional measure of including their official business address in their marketing to the merchant. So no, you are not entitled to complete anonymity.
I can fund in all 50 states!
But can you though? If you offer loans, there are a number of state laws that govern the legality of that. If you offer MCAs, there are states like Virginia for which you are required to be registered by law (applies to both funders and brokers). There are penalties for not following the laws.
I don’t need any fancy systems to be a funder
Well you’re going to need something. In the not too distant future you will be required to comply with 888 pages of regulations governing how you can collect merchant data all while having to report the details of every single application you looked at in addition to every single deal you declined or funded to the federal government. You also have to explain the rationale for your decision in every instance. This includes MCA and yes it’s a law not a proposal. I hope you’re ready.
MCA is legal so I don’t need to worry about anything
There are legal precedents that guide what can or can’t be done with regards to the purchase of future receivables. Generally speaking (and please consult with an attorney), one’s right to collect is not absolute. See this recent case, for example.
I sent some deals out to some shady funders who have gone MIA and no longer take my calls. The funder is to blame and is bad
Most brokers who cry foul about no-name fly-by-night funders that offered swift approvals and high commissions only to be ghosted are quick to share that they were swindled out of a potential commission. No one likes to suffer through that. However, consider the legal risk now posed to yourself and your client with the information you’ve passed on. In a recent criminal case, an ISO managing merchant documents is alleged to have stolen their identities and obtained dozens of business loans in their names. So ask yourself on a scale of 1 – 10, how confident are you in the person/company you’re passing a merchant’s deal docs to that they will comply with all state and federal laws? Your commission might not be the only thing they steal and that creates legal hazard for you. For what it’s worth, he’s a good guy isn’t a great standard when it comes to legal due diligence.
As always, please consult a qualified attorney. If you are being solicited by a funder that has not sought any legal advice at all and is instead operating by the seat of their pants because they heard this was a good business, you should probably move on to someone else.
From A to D: How LCF is Aiming High
October 9, 2023
Robert Kleiber was a banker. He started his career at Citi in 2000 and rose up the ranks to become Head of Small Business Banking for North America by 2014. By then times were changing and disruptive fintech technology was becoming the talk of the town. Kleiber saw it firsthand and wanted in. So, he made the daring move to leave Citi in 2016 to go make his mark in the rapidly evolving world of small business finance.
He first served as the CFO of an NYC-based fintech company until another unique opportunity presented itself. It was at a growing company on Long Island that he hadn’t really known that much about previously. The way Kleiber tells it to deBanked, the company had a way of communicating the scale of its aspirations that got him really excited. He went for it. The company was called The LCF Group, a revenue-based financing provider that was headquartered in New Hyde Park. Today, Kleiber is the CFO & COO of the LCF Group. Founded in 2011, the company has solidified itself as a stalwart in what folks often call the “C & D paper” space.
“The goal,” Kleiber reveals, “is to be largest subprime funder by the end of next year.”
That’s a lofty ambition. In an industry oft-filled with big talk and rosy projections, LCF’s trajectory actually appears to support this possible outcome. Between in-office and remote, the company already has approximately 200 employees and it’s been on a hot streak of recruiting talent. Most compelling of all, however, is that LCF recently acquired select strategic assets and licensing rights to a well-regarded name in the industry, Reliant Funding. At the time of the announcement, the company said that “This strategic move not only enhances LCF’s portfolio but also empowers us to offer merchant funding through both ISO partners and directly under the LCF and Reliant brands.”
“On the direct side, our plan is to build up Reliant on originations […] and get them back to where they were before,” Kleiber says.
In that regard, LCF fully intends to leverage the Reliant name back into a powerhouse funding arm in the prime paper arena, first by going direct to merchant and then by taking on ISO/referral business for it. Between its two brands then, the company is on its way to covering the gamut from A – D. Unsurprisingly, all of this activity requires strong technology to make everything work. Kleiber says that they have 20-25 developers constantly building out their systems, which they rely on to not only increase the speed in which they can approve deals but also to achieve maximum compliance.
“We take compliance super serious,” Kleiber says. “Our differentiator is transparency, operating above board.”
LCF’s new Director of Sales, Jason Redding, who previously spent ten years at OnDeck, echoes same. “Even though it’s C & D paper, we’re doing this the correct way,” Redding says. Redding, who experienced the incredible ride at his former employer from startup to IPO and beyond, explains that LCF is giving him a similar feeling of what that journey was like. “Being part of something like that again is something I’m looking forward to,” he says.
And yet when it comes down to product, the company is perfectly content for the time being to focus on what they’re good at, which is revenue-based financing through and through. They’ve determined it’s better to lean in and try to be the best at something rather than try to offer too many different things.
At the LCF office in New Hyde Park, one can find various departments working to carry out the company’s mission. Among the introductions and small talk made during a walkthrough, one line uttered by a veteran member of their team stands out. “In this industry you don’t have to be earth shatteringly different, just operate with honesty, integrity, and transparency, and success will follow.”
Are You an Underwriter Thinking About Going into Sales?
September 26, 2023
My days of working on deals are long gone but once upon a time I was the head of one of the most well-known MCA underwriting departments (Merchant Cash and Capital). The problem was that I was a restless 24 year-old with a front row seat to watching ISOs my age and younger make up to 4x as much as my salary all while spending their days giving me a hard time. I don’t have to recall what it was like because I wrote it down when it was happening.
“ISOs debate constantly about declines and make excuses for required paperwork that merchants can’t produce,” I wrote.
I had little appreciation for how hard sales was and I relished being a hardliner on guidelines. While this approach ultimately paid off majorly for the company (it was in the run-up to 2008!), it did not prepare me for what I did next. I quit my position and became a sales rep for an affiliated ISO, you know because I thought I would automatically become rich off commissions.
After learning that sales meant I would get only 3 leads per day, it dawned on me that 95% of my time would be spent cold calling UCCs. And so that’s what I did, blasting away UCCs on a manual hand dial basis because there was no auto-dialer. Getting any app in at all was a huge achievement and I begged and pleaded with underwriters to pre-approve incomplete files that in a former life I would have enjoyed striking down.
It was a very humbling experience, which was made all the more humble when about a month later almost every MCA company in the industry stopped funding as credit lines got pulled and the financial system came to a standstill to kick off the Great Recession. I really could not believe my luck. My position had no base pay in those days so I had really shot myself in the foot. Just as before, I documented my experience.
“My streak was extended to 25 declined deals and a merchant I had been pitching for literally 4 months was finally giving me a shot. The sweat, the stress, and the dwindling commission paychecks led to the addition of a 2% closing cost on the deal. The merchant ok’d it and signed my form.”
I wasn’t the closing fee type but after the terrible streak and virtually no pay for a whole month, it happened. Unfortunately, the funder I did it with was not happy about it at all.
“The funder got wind of the closing cost and called our office,” I wrote. “Something was said about greed and overburdening their merchant. A warning was issued and they were going to watch my submissions more closely. 25 straight submissions with auto-decline notices, 4 months of sweat in closing a deal, and only a quarter of that 2% closing cost actually going into my pocket. That’s pre-tax by the way. Now I’m on their watch list.”
Somehow, somewhere at a funding company there was an underwriter out there talking about me being an annoying ISO. Fortunately, I appreciated the irony at the time and it was no hard feelings. I felt thankful for having had the experience on the other side of the table.
If you’re wondering if I went back to underwriting or gave up sales, I didn’t. I continued on as a sales rep and manually dialed hundreds of people a day for another three years. I really enjoyed the challenge and the motivation it sparked inside me. I ended up getting a lot of deals funded, though probably not enough to say that I was ever great at it. I launched deBanked while doing this believe it or not. Smile and dial during the day, type on the site at night. Oh those were the days.
The moral of my experience is that the grass is always greener on the other side and sometimes it takes walking a mile in another person’s shoes to really appreciate what they do. If you’re ever annoyed by someone you have to deal with or envious of whatever they’re getting, just know there’s probably more to the story. I hope this helps.
BOO! The deBanked Spooktacular is Coming in October (For Real)
September 25, 2023 Oh there’s a Broker event in New York alright, and it’s by deBanked on October 26. Join the industry for a deBanked Spooktacular at Bourbon & Branch in Midtown Manhattan.
Get right to the networking and fun in the hub of the industry and enjoy bundles of swag, an open bar, treats, and more. Costumes are welcome but not required. The tickets cost a fraction of other events. If you’re a broker, meet the funders and leave with a goodie bag you’ll never forget! deBanked and DailyFunder website advertisers get a special privilege. To find out what that is, email: larissa@debanked.com deBanked CONNECT MIAMI will follow on Jan 11, 2024 in Miami Beach.
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As IRS Announces Pause of ERC Payouts, Businesses May Resume Pursuit of Upfront Alternatives
September 14, 2023
Across the web on internet forums such as Reddit, business owners accustomed to telling ERC filing war stories are starting to worry that their checks might not be coming any time soon.
“I spoke with an agent today. She said they received an organization-wide email to stop processing ERC for the time being,” one user reported at the end of August. Some users replied to say that it wasn’t true. But it is.
On July 26, IRS Commissioner Danny Werfel said that the IRS had cleared its backlog of valid ERC claims and is now “intensifying compliance work and putting in place additional procedures to deal with fraud in the program.”
“The further we get from the pandemic, we believe the percentage of legitimate claims coming in is declining,” Werfel said.
The IRS later confirmed to the Wall Street Journal that it had in fact slowed its processing of claims. There’s some truth in the assertion that the IRS had cleared out a major backlog before doing this.
In late June, for example, those same internet forums were abuzz with happy check recipients and a rush of optimism that the era of long processing wait times was coming to a close. The shift in sentiment had implications. For Finance ERC, a company that provides business owners with cash upfront in return for buying their future ERC receivables, the impact was immediate.
“[Early in] the summer we saw tremendous demand in our origination levels, April, May, and June, of companies coming to us with the mindset that the IRS was taking too long so they wanted to sell their ERC credit rather than wait,” said David Goldin, a Managing Member of Finance ERC. “And then we saw in our portfolio, which is large checks flowing in from the IRS all at once over the summer, and then we saw our demand for new customers fall off a cliff.”
The IRS cranking out checks had made people reconsider not wanting to wait.
“Psychologically, customers then would say, ‘why would I finance it, I’m going to be getting my check any day, my friend got his check, this one got his check…'”
But since then IRS checks slowed to a crawl, intentionally. And for all the talk about clearing the backlog, there were still 637,000 unprocessed 941-X forms (adjusted quarterly tax forms necessary for the credit) as of September 6th, not to mention that under current law, 2020 tax returns can be amended until April 2024, and 2021 returns can be amended until April 2025.
On September 14th, the IRS upped the ante of a delay to a total pause for new claims. “New claims for the employee retention credit, or ERC, won’t be processed until at least 2024,” the WSJ reported. The headline leaves little room for misinterpretation: IRS Shuts Door on New Pandemic Tax Credit Claims Until at Least 2024.
All of which means that business owners are now back to the waiting game and potentially back to considering upfront solutions. For Finance ERC, the company saw interest suddenly pick up and then accelerate since the first WSJ story came out.
“So I’m not saying the day that article came out, but we’ve definitely seen a spike in demand,” Goldin said. “My thing would be that for anyone that was selling [ERC financing], to think about that again, or those that weren’t selling it and they’re feeling that the MCA market is struggling, it’s too competitive, this is a new opportunity.”
Goldin shared this prior to the news breaking that the delay of ERC payouts had completely paused. Presumably, it would only make businesses more interested in getting the financing.
As he previously told deBanked, Finance ERC’s product requires no payments, can be eligible for up to 4-6x of what they would otherwise qualify for with an MCA, and can get it at a fraction of the cost of an MCA. But offering it can’t be done as an afterthought, he explained, even if you’re a big company with a big merchant portfolio.
“…you send out one or two emails you might as well not even send them out at all,” Goldin said.” Unless you’re actually embracing the product in your ecosystem, you know, drip marketing, follow up, you literally have to have a separate team selling it or it won’t work. But the guys that have done it, I know a few MCA guys that have, they’ve crushed it on both filing and funding. They’ve set up a separate group, separate sales guys, and they’re really killing it.”
And so the previous frontier of financing the ERC could now also be the next frontier yet again because of what’s taking place. On one subreddit, now that the reality is setting in, the tone has shifted.
“Has anyone tried contacting their state representative about the delay in refund?” The user began. He then adds that he’s already been waiting a whole year.
