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Sean Murray: You've written some
crypto content in fact our

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crypto content has kind of
increased in the last few

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months. Because you you've been
putting a little bit of focus on

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that on that space. And I know
that you've even gone to some of

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the, the NFT and crypto events.
Yep. What's, you know, what do

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you think about crypto in
general? Do you have thoughts

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about like the industry or the
concept?

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Adam Zaki: I think that there's
some legitimacy in the

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fundamentals of cryptocurrency
things like blockchain

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technology, and objective
ledger, all that stuff will have

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a place in finance, it already
does if brokers had a place

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where they can go and get all
the information in one spot and

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share it with each other, have
access to credit scores, you

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know bank transaction history,
all that stuff for any merchant

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that you needed, and all the
merchant have to do is give you

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a password, you have access
their entire entire financial

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history in one spot. It's
beautiful brokers would kill for

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that. Right. And I think that
that is where the technology

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will serve the financial
community is in the fundamentals

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of the way it works. Bored apes,
crypto punks, all that stuff.

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It's part of the hype. Yeah, you
go to these shows, it's so

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funny. I go to you post a like a
an alternative financer in

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LinkedIn, does, so well, you
post a crypto post on LinkedIn

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does nothing,

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Sean Murray: I think and I just
got to say, because I think that

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some people think that there's
no link between the two,

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alternative finance and crypto,
that crypto Is this, like

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isolated, you know, kind of like
craze. Yeah, that ultimately is

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not going to play a factor in
the rest of it. Like having

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interviewed tons of people now
in that space and met a lot of

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the shows. I mean, do you think
that's correct?

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Adam Zaki: I think that people
who are in this space and a lot

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about money, and they don't want
to be perceived, that they don't

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know a lot about money. So they
want to project that hey, I know

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about crypto I'm in the space.
So I think that it's a great way

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for people in finance to you
know, if they don't trust the

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dollar they can use it as a
savings account. Go put, you

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know, put 10 grand in Bitcoin.
Yeah. Rather than put it in

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your, you know, a CD in a bank.
If you want to do that. That's

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fine. But once again, I think it
comes down to the fundamentals

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of blockchain technology. That's
where finance will be able to

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leverage this. I don't think
pictures of animals or know all

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these random coin Shiba coin,
maybe Dogecoin cause Elon Musk

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isn't so into Dogecoin. But
these random coins you've never

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heard of, and these pictures of
all these animals. It's part of

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the hype. It's like the.com
Bubble really is. But just like

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how we all type in.com Every
day, blockchain technology will

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eventually be a part of all of
our lives. We see out for a male

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using NFT's to attract service
history on cars, whether that's

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marketing, or whether that's
true innovation. It's probably

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more marketing. Yeah. But you
know, once again, you see that

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there's legitimacy in the
technology. So it's not

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something to just dismiss and
throw away, you can't look at

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crypto and go, this is garbage.
You're being naive three, four

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years ago, you could have said
that and that would have been

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okay. But now it's you're being
naive if you don't recognize the

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legitimacy of blockchain tech.
Objective Ledger's that kind of

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thing, a place where anybody can
go get access to information

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that if it is altered it can it
you can see who altered the

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information. Yeah, having access
to universal places of data,

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it's a no brainer for the
finance world open banking be

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solved with Blockchain
technology. But I think the

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people in power are a little bit
older, they don't understand the

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technology. Government has no
idea what's going on with

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cryptocurrency and digital
assets. So it's a little bit

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ahead of its time right now. But
I think we'll see 5, 10, 15

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years down the road, we will all
know what an NFT is. And we will

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not have a problem explaining
exactly what it is.

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Sean Murray: You know, it's
crazy about the whole thing

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about saying it's ahead of its
time, and it's so new and all

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that stuff that Bitcoin is at
this point, like what, like 14

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years old, something something
like 14 years old, I think it is

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now so it's not that new. Right?
That's but that's Bitcoin. And

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then you have ethereum, which is
kind of like the second most

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popular, which has been around
for less time, but still, you

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know, more than more than five
years. And I start to wonder, at

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what point do you know at what
point do you decide like, Yes,

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this is here to stay versus no
this is just kind of like a

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short term thing. I feel like
Bitcoin having survived a decade

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and a half is a good indication
of like longevity. Like that's

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even even even if it's had ups
and downs, the fact that it's

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still there, right. And I think
some people, they look at the

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price and they draw conclusions
about bitcoin's utility, based

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on just the the fluctuation of
the price, which I think is

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incorrect. I think, my own
personal opinion, I'm just

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talking but I think that if you
just look at the fact that so

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many people are still using
Bitcoin for whatever purpose it

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is, is a good indication of it
going to be around for a lot

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longer. Also, for those who were
already adults, when Bitcoin

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came out, we're all thinking
about whether or not this is

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going to last versus if bitcoin
was part of your life when you

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were a kid. You kind of accepted
that being part of the world

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right? It's kind of like, right
like it was, it's been there,

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Adam Zaki: You're a crypto
native,

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Sean Murray: Your a crypto
native, it's like, it's hard for

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us to believe. If something
didn't exist 10 years before we

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were born, right? And you're
like, it's the it was the olden

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days, because it existed when
you were a kid, right? And

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someone tries to tell you like,
Well, when I was your age, I

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didn't think this whole thing
was gonna pan out. Some people

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didn't think the internet was
gonna pan out. And people think

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computers were gonna pan out. I
did, because I grew up with the

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internet as a kid, or in
computers as a kid, not not in

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the, not in the very beginning.
But when I was like, 12, 13, 14,

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and for me, this was definitely
going to be the future. But for

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adults, at that age, there was
all this. Well, who knows? You

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know, how, you know, we have fax
machines already, like, we can

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go to the library, you know,
they were all kind of hedging

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their bets and waiting to see if
this would like kind of pan out.

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But if bitcoin was already a
thing, and I have to, you know,

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I tell kids today, I'm like we
didn't have cell phones. When we

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were kids, you couldn't just go
around and take pictures. They

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can't imagine it, right? Like,
now you tell them like, Oh, we

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didn't have Bitcoin? When we
were a kid. We didn't have

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cryptocurrency, when we were a
kid they actually can't imagine

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it. Because they've always,
they've always known it was

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there. Even if they didn't use
it, it was it was already out

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there. It was, it was a thing,
right? It existed. It's like

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part of the makeup of the world.
Like if you were born, maybe I'm

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maybe I'm just talking too much
now. But if you like, I think

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about this kind of stuff,
sometimes where humans have this

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tendency to accept that which we
were, we have always been

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introduced to. So that if you
know if we were two, three years

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old, and you saw people flying
in the air, you would just be

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like people can fly in the air.
Yeah. And that's just the way it

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is. Right? And if they told you
that, you know, in the olden

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days, people couldn't fly in the
air, like, well, that's crazy.

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What do you mean, they couldn't
always fly in the air? And I

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think that this, this kind of
feeds into this where it's just,

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this is how is this is how it's
going to be like it is once it

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happens. It's just the fabric of
the world, you know, and humans

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just start to accept it,
especially if they hear about it

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from a very young age. I
actually do think about the

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whole thing about if we have
been born if people flew around

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the world kinda like Santa
Claus. Yeah, people accept it as

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true. Doesn't matter how it
works. It's just the way the

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world of course theres Santa
he's at Macy's? He's at the

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mall. That's. right.

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Adam Zaki: There's no Bitcoin
right now is like a boogeyman to

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a lot of people hear about it,
but they don't see it. They

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don't touch it. They don't
interact with it. That's what we

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need.

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Sean Murray: But if you were
like seven, eight years old, I

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was I was following DOA
recently. Yep. And the leader of

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the DOA, I found this after
like, two or three weeks of

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being like, yeah, this DAO was
so cool. That the leader was

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like 16 years old. And I was
like, you're still in high

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school, right? But he had this
huge following online. Yeah.

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Like a very experienced coder.
His coding skills, you know, far

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outpaced mine. spoke the lingo,
the language. And when I found

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out he was a high school kid, it
just blew my mind. Because to

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him, this was the normal fabric
of the world. Yeah, right. And

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here, he was just so fortunate
to be a leader in what he

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accepts as normal, whereas we're
still like, are these things

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gonna pan out. Is this just a
fad, right?

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Adam Zaki: But then, you know,
to flip that around, if

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everything wants to go belly up,
that kid that you met would have

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no idea what to do. Yeah, for us
with experience outside of the

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crypto world, we know that this
might not work. So in the back

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of our minds, you know, I'm not
putting all my money into

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Bitcoin. But a kid like that
probably would might use Bitcoin

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as a savings account. Yeah.
Which at 18 years old, or 16

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years old, it's like the dumbest
thing you could do. But there's

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a plenty. There's a lot of
people out there that are doing

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just that. Yeah. That are using
crypto using apps like Coinbase

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as a savings account, which is
no bueno. Definitely not good.

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Sean Murray: Yeah. Yeah. You
know, there's, there's, there's

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a flip side to all of it, right?
Yeah. Is that you don't want to

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buy into the hype. You want to
hedge your bets, because we've

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also seen in our in our
lifetimes, things rise, and then

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crash. Yeah. And so it's weird.
It's also weird how human nature

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has like works in cycles, like,
home values shoot up, and

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everything's amazing. And we're
like, the party seems like it

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will never end and then all
sudden, it ends. Yeah. And for

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the, for the young person. They
it's like, this, like, earth

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shattering moment of, I can't
believe this happened. Whereas

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someone who's been around for
several decades, is like, this

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always happens. This is what I
was saying. Yep, of course, this

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was gonna happen, right?

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Adam Zaki: But then that kid
will turn into that guy, and

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then something new will come
along, and the cycle just just

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Sean Murray: Continues,
continues with everything. But

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then but along the way, we still
adopt new things like the

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internet just like became part
of the fabric of like the world.

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And I have to think that things
like Bitcoin will will too,

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which is why we still write
about it and why we still talk

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about it. And it's because for
me personally, it's because

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there is an underlying utility
to Bitcoin, I do not care about

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the price. That's the least
important thing to me. If

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Bitcoin was just an asset that
you could trade, we wouldn't be

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writing about it if that's if
that's what it was to me, we

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wouldn't write about it because
we're not here to write about,

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you know, Wall Street trading.
That's just not what we write

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about. Bitcoin is about being
able to move money outside the

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banking system. That's it, we're
deBanked. It's a no brainer, you

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have to write about it. Yeah.
Right. It's impossible to ignore

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the ability to move money
outside of banking. And I think

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that, for those who work in the
complicated world of finance,

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they see the value of being able
to do that, too. Because once

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you reach a certain level in
your life, you realize that it

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can be difficult being
restricted by banks. But also

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even if even if you haven't
gotten there, if you're the

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underserved people talk about
the underserved too. They don't

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have a bank account. Lots of
people don't have bank accounts,

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they rely on like payday loans,
like the, the check cashing

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place, cash, only cash under the
mattress, all that other stuff.

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And here, all of a sudden,
Bitcoin provides that

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opportunity to hold on to money
outside of banking, transfer

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money to someone else outside of
banking, right? Yeah. You say,

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Well, you can buy a visa, you
know, debit cards at the store

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and all that stuff. Yeah, I
guess maybe. But you know, what,

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who controls that debit card at
any point, you know, Visa,

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whatever, it could just erase
the balance, freeze the car,

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whatever. Yeah, this says you
are the owner of that money, and

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you can transfer it to whoever
you want. And I think if you

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look at the global, you know,
the global landscape, there's a

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lot of things that governments
say they don't want you to do.

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You can't do they have questions
about what you're doing. Like if

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you if you have family back home
in another country and you want

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to send them some money in
there, like, who are they? Why

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are you sending it? You can't
send it, let me look into why

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you're sending in news like, you
know, like, well, I just want to

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send my family money. Bitcoin is
cure for that. It's not. It's

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not like it's anonymous, but
allows you to make the

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transaction without anyone
saying that you can't. And this

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is going to be something that
the world sees value in, I think

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forever, which in my opinion, is
why you and I are still going to

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be writing about crypto and
Bitcoin.

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Adam Zaki: I think that we got
to the idea of Bitcoin,

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representing the entire
blockchain is no good. That's

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true. I think we need to and
you're not the only person that

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does this. I do it too where
instead of like, when we talk

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about the blockchain, we use the
word Bitcoin. We need to use the

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word blockchain. That's true,
because that's where the value

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lies. Bitcoin is just another
coin. It goes like this. The

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blockchain is the fundamentals.
It's like if you're talking

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about baseball, not just going
to talk about the Yankees. Well,

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it's about baseball. Well, while
you're in New York, my point is,

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is that bitcoins just a part of
the entire process. And then

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people just focus on Bitcoin as
blockchain technology, which is

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so far from the truth. And if
you really look into what

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blockchain technology is, the
between flash loans and the

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ledgers I mean, we've written
about it. It's truly the value

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is limitless, you know, it's not
leveraged in whoever does is

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going to make a boatload of
cash.

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Sean Murray: Yeah. Once they
capitalize on the utility aspect

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of it, you know, I we look at
what Jack Dorsey is doing over

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at Square which is now blocked.
Yep. And he's known as like a

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Bitcoin Maxy. Because Bitcoin
you were talking about

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blockchain. You were saying it's
fun it's about blockchain. You

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had Jack Dorsey saying no, it's
about Bitcoin. But Jack Dorsey

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is a smart person. Like really
smart, right? And he's kind of

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gone all in on the concept of
Bitcoin. And sure, his firm

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makes a lot of money off of
selling and stuff. But I think

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ultimately, he recognized he's
sort of, he's kind of like the

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anarchist, you know, like, like,
you know, segment of Silicon

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Valley's of tech, even in the,
you know, what I mean? Like,

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anti this anti that, you know,
with the big beard and all and

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all that other stuff, right? He,
he, though, is very smart. And I

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like watching and seeing what
he's doing what he's saying,

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even if I sometimes don't agree
with it. Because I think he is

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right on the part that this
stuff is not going to go away.

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And when people are like, why
are you writing about this

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stuff? You know, in a world of
like lending, it's because well,

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so many people for years in
lending have been trying to

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figure out how can we get money
to people the fastest? How can

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get money to people that you
know, the cheapest, and payments

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is inevitably tied into lending.
No matter what I've heard about

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it nonstop for more than a
decade. We're going to use the

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credit card processing to take a
percentage we need to ACH the

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account. Next ACH isn't enough.
We need to do same day ACH and

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the problem with ACH is that
once you do the ACH it takes

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five days to clear the ACH we
need to figure out a new way to

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do the payment it's a whole
thing yeah, all you people

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worrying about payments all day
long. And then someone comes in

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says hey, you do this for
payments. Why you talking about

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payments? You know why? What is
this? Right? We're like we're

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lending companies. I don't want
to hear about payments. Sorry,

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this is payments. It's a no, the
massively disruptive part of

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payments that I think that
everyone needs to pay attention

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to, no matter what part of
finance you're working,

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especially in lending. Yeah,
there's already somebody in this

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industry in this particular
small business finance industry

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who's already using crypto as a
way to fund businesses

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instantly. Yeah, that person
that business owner is like,

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that's great that you can ACH me
tomorrow, I need the money right

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now. Or I'm talking to three of
your competitors first person to

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get get me the money is the
winner, I'll sign that contract?

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You're gonna What are you gonna
be like, Well, no, I don't like

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crypto so and then the person
who was crypto is gonna be like,

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I win. Yep. There's value in
that

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Adam Zaki: Theres value, too. I
mean, especially talking about

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the approval process, you're
gonna merchants credit sucks.

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You got a 400 credit score. But
on the blockchain, they borrow

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money and pay back well, and
they have a blockchain as credit

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score, you can justify funding
them. That's true, you know, so

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there's, there's so many
different ways that lenders can

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utilize this. And I know that
the buzzwords Bitcoin, crypto,

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NFT they're sick of it. But they
just they're gotta take their

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lender hat off and put their
learning hat on. And take out

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the whether or not the number is
going up aspect. They'll go

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well, Bitcoin is down now or
this crypto is down now. That's

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not what crypto is. And that's
not why we write about it.

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No, not at all. I don't care
about the value of any coin. You

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know, I mean, in my deBanked
life, the money in crypto a

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little bit. Yeah, but but in
terms of the turnout enough for

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him to be completed. Not at all,
less than $100. My point is, is

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like I think that the value is
not in the coins. It's not in

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the up and down. Don't look at a
graph read. That's how you

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should that's how you should
learn about blockchain

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technology. Forget about the
graphs, forget about the values,

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read and watch videos of people
explaining it. That's how I

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learned

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Sean Murray: The utility of it.
The utility of not now what

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about which one's gonna go up?
You know, like, what cause I do

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get that question? Sean, you
know, it seems like you know,

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about crypto, which one should I
buy? Which one's going up? Like,

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yeah, that's just give up. Now.

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Adam Zaki: That's I asking,
that's like asking somebody,

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what stock should I buy?

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Sean Murray: It's the exact same
exact sentence. It's the exact

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same. No there's utility to it.
And once once people realize

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what the utility is, and how
they can capitalize on that

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utility in whatever business
they're in, in finance, or

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whatever it is, that's when
that's when you'll be able to

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really make a difference and
continue your business for the

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long term.

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Adam Zaki: 100%