Sean Murray: You've written some crypto content in fact our
crypto content has kind of increased in the last few
months. Because you you've been putting a little bit of focus on
that on that space. And I know that you've even gone to some of
the, the NFT and crypto events. Yep. What's, you know, what do
you think about crypto in general? Do you have thoughts
about like the industry or the concept?
Adam Zaki: I think that there's some legitimacy in the
fundamentals of cryptocurrency things like blockchain
technology, and objective ledger, all that stuff will have
a place in finance, it already does if brokers had a place
where they can go and get all the information in one spot and
share it with each other, have access to credit scores, you
know bank transaction history, all that stuff for any merchant
that you needed, and all the merchant have to do is give you
a password, you have access their entire entire financial
history in one spot. It's beautiful brokers would kill for
that. Right. And I think that that is where the technology
will serve the financial community is in the fundamentals
of the way it works. Bored apes, crypto punks, all that stuff.
It's part of the hype. Yeah, you go to these shows, it's so
funny. I go to you post a like a an alternative financer in
LinkedIn, does, so well, you post a crypto post on LinkedIn
does nothing,
Sean Murray: I think and I just got to say, because I think that
some people think that there's no link between the two,
alternative finance and crypto, that crypto Is this, like
isolated, you know, kind of like craze. Yeah, that ultimately is
not going to play a factor in the rest of it. Like having
interviewed tons of people now in that space and met a lot of
the shows. I mean, do you think that's correct?
Adam Zaki: I think that people who are in this space and a lot
about money, and they don't want to be perceived, that they don't
know a lot about money. So they want to project that hey, I know
about crypto I'm in the space. So I think that it's a great way
for people in finance to you know, if they don't trust the
dollar they can use it as a savings account. Go put, you
know, put 10 grand in Bitcoin. Yeah. Rather than put it in
your, you know, a CD in a bank. If you want to do that. That's
fine. But once again, I think it comes down to the fundamentals
of blockchain technology. That's where finance will be able to
leverage this. I don't think pictures of animals or know all
these random coin Shiba coin, maybe Dogecoin cause Elon Musk
isn't so into Dogecoin. But these random coins you've never
heard of, and these pictures of all these animals. It's part of
the hype. It's like the.com Bubble really is. But just like
how we all type in.com Every day, blockchain technology will
eventually be a part of all of our lives. We see out for a male
using NFT's to attract service history on cars, whether that's
marketing, or whether that's true innovation. It's probably
more marketing. Yeah. But you know, once again, you see that
there's legitimacy in the technology. So it's not
something to just dismiss and throw away, you can't look at
crypto and go, this is garbage. You're being naive three, four
years ago, you could have said that and that would have been
okay. But now it's you're being naive if you don't recognize the
legitimacy of blockchain tech. Objective Ledger's that kind of
thing, a place where anybody can go get access to information
that if it is altered it can it you can see who altered the
information. Yeah, having access to universal places of data,
it's a no brainer for the finance world open banking be
solved with Blockchain technology. But I think the
people in power are a little bit older, they don't understand the
technology. Government has no idea what's going on with
cryptocurrency and digital assets. So it's a little bit
ahead of its time right now. But I think we'll see 5, 10, 15
years down the road, we will all know what an NFT is. And we will
not have a problem explaining exactly what it is.
Sean Murray: You know, it's crazy about the whole thing
about saying it's ahead of its time, and it's so new and all
that stuff that Bitcoin is at this point, like what, like 14
years old, something something like 14 years old, I think it is
now so it's not that new. Right? That's but that's Bitcoin. And
then you have ethereum, which is kind of like the second most
popular, which has been around for less time, but still, you
know, more than more than five years. And I start to wonder, at
what point do you know at what point do you decide like, Yes,
this is here to stay versus no this is just kind of like a
short term thing. I feel like Bitcoin having survived a decade
and a half is a good indication of like longevity. Like that's
even even even if it's had ups and downs, the fact that it's
still there, right. And I think some people, they look at the
price and they draw conclusions about bitcoin's utility, based
on just the the fluctuation of the price, which I think is
incorrect. I think, my own personal opinion, I'm just
talking but I think that if you just look at the fact that so
many people are still using Bitcoin for whatever purpose it
is, is a good indication of it going to be around for a lot
longer. Also, for those who were already adults, when Bitcoin
came out, we're all thinking about whether or not this is
going to last versus if bitcoin was part of your life when you
were a kid. You kind of accepted that being part of the world
right? It's kind of like, right like it was, it's been there,
Adam Zaki: You're a crypto native,
Sean Murray: Your a crypto native, it's like, it's hard for
us to believe. If something didn't exist 10 years before we
were born, right? And you're like, it's the it was the olden
days, because it existed when you were a kid, right? And
someone tries to tell you like, Well, when I was your age, I
didn't think this whole thing was gonna pan out. Some people
didn't think the internet was gonna pan out. And people think
computers were gonna pan out. I did, because I grew up with the
internet as a kid, or in computers as a kid, not not in
the, not in the very beginning. But when I was like, 12, 13, 14,
and for me, this was definitely going to be the future. But for
adults, at that age, there was all this. Well, who knows? You
know, how, you know, we have fax machines already, like, we can
go to the library, you know, they were all kind of hedging
their bets and waiting to see if this would like kind of pan out.
But if bitcoin was already a thing, and I have to, you know,
I tell kids today, I'm like we didn't have cell phones. When we
were kids, you couldn't just go around and take pictures. They
can't imagine it, right? Like, now you tell them like, Oh, we
didn't have Bitcoin? When we were a kid. We didn't have
cryptocurrency, when we were a kid they actually can't imagine
it. Because they've always, they've always known it was
there. Even if they didn't use it, it was it was already out
there. It was, it was a thing, right? It existed. It's like
part of the makeup of the world. Like if you were born, maybe I'm
maybe I'm just talking too much now. But if you like, I think
about this kind of stuff, sometimes where humans have this
tendency to accept that which we were, we have always been
introduced to. So that if you know if we were two, three years
old, and you saw people flying in the air, you would just be
like people can fly in the air. Yeah. And that's just the way it
is. Right? And if they told you that, you know, in the olden
days, people couldn't fly in the air, like, well, that's crazy.
What do you mean, they couldn't always fly in the air? And I
think that this, this kind of feeds into this where it's just,
this is how is this is how it's going to be like it is once it
happens. It's just the fabric of the world, you know, and humans
just start to accept it, especially if they hear about it
from a very young age. I actually do think about the
whole thing about if we have been born if people flew around
the world kinda like Santa Claus. Yeah, people accept it as
true. Doesn't matter how it works. It's just the way the
world of course theres Santa he's at Macy's? He's at the
mall. That's. right.
Adam Zaki: There's no Bitcoin right now is like a boogeyman to
a lot of people hear about it, but they don't see it. They
don't touch it. They don't interact with it. That's what we
need.
Sean Murray: But if you were like seven, eight years old, I
was I was following DOA recently. Yep. And the leader of
the DOA, I found this after like, two or three weeks of
being like, yeah, this DAO was so cool. That the leader was
like 16 years old. And I was like, you're still in high
school, right? But he had this huge following online. Yeah.
Like a very experienced coder. His coding skills, you know, far
outpaced mine. spoke the lingo, the language. And when I found
out he was a high school kid, it just blew my mind. Because to
him, this was the normal fabric of the world. Yeah, right. And
here, he was just so fortunate to be a leader in what he
accepts as normal, whereas we're still like, are these things
gonna pan out. Is this just a fad, right?
Adam Zaki: But then, you know, to flip that around, if
everything wants to go belly up, that kid that you met would have
no idea what to do. Yeah, for us with experience outside of the
crypto world, we know that this might not work. So in the back
of our minds, you know, I'm not putting all my money into
Bitcoin. But a kid like that probably would might use Bitcoin
as a savings account. Yeah. Which at 18 years old, or 16
years old, it's like the dumbest thing you could do. But there's
a plenty. There's a lot of people out there that are doing
just that. Yeah. That are using crypto using apps like Coinbase
as a savings account, which is no bueno. Definitely not good.
Sean Murray: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's, there's, there's
a flip side to all of it, right? Yeah. Is that you don't want to
buy into the hype. You want to hedge your bets, because we've
also seen in our in our lifetimes, things rise, and then
crash. Yeah. And so it's weird. It's also weird how human nature
has like works in cycles, like, home values shoot up, and
everything's amazing. And we're like, the party seems like it
will never end and then all sudden, it ends. Yeah. And for
the, for the young person. They it's like, this, like, earth
shattering moment of, I can't believe this happened. Whereas
someone who's been around for several decades, is like, this
always happens. This is what I was saying. Yep, of course, this
was gonna happen, right?
Adam Zaki: But then that kid will turn into that guy, and
then something new will come along, and the cycle just just
Sean Murray: Continues, continues with everything. But
then but along the way, we still adopt new things like the
internet just like became part of the fabric of like the world.
And I have to think that things like Bitcoin will will too,
which is why we still write about it and why we still talk
about it. And it's because for me personally, it's because
there is an underlying utility to Bitcoin, I do not care about
the price. That's the least important thing to me. If
Bitcoin was just an asset that you could trade, we wouldn't be
writing about it if that's if that's what it was to me, we
wouldn't write about it because we're not here to write about,
you know, Wall Street trading. That's just not what we write
about. Bitcoin is about being able to move money outside the
banking system. That's it, we're deBanked. It's a no brainer, you
have to write about it. Yeah. Right. It's impossible to ignore
the ability to move money outside of banking. And I think
that, for those who work in the complicated world of finance,
they see the value of being able to do that, too. Because once
you reach a certain level in your life, you realize that it
can be difficult being restricted by banks. But also
even if even if you haven't gotten there, if you're the
underserved people talk about the underserved too. They don't
have a bank account. Lots of people don't have bank accounts,
they rely on like payday loans, like the, the check cashing
place, cash, only cash under the mattress, all that other stuff.
And here, all of a sudden, Bitcoin provides that
opportunity to hold on to money outside of banking, transfer
money to someone else outside of banking, right? Yeah. You say,
Well, you can buy a visa, you know, debit cards at the store
and all that stuff. Yeah, I guess maybe. But you know, what,
who controls that debit card at any point, you know, Visa,
whatever, it could just erase the balance, freeze the car,
whatever. Yeah, this says you are the owner of that money, and
you can transfer it to whoever you want. And I think if you
look at the global, you know, the global landscape, there's a
lot of things that governments say they don't want you to do.
You can't do they have questions about what you're doing. Like if
you if you have family back home in another country and you want
to send them some money in there, like, who are they? Why
are you sending it? You can't send it, let me look into why
you're sending in news like, you know, like, well, I just want to
send my family money. Bitcoin is cure for that. It's not. It's
not like it's anonymous, but allows you to make the
transaction without anyone saying that you can't. And this
is going to be something that the world sees value in, I think
forever, which in my opinion, is why you and I are still going to
be writing about crypto and Bitcoin.
Adam Zaki: I think that we got to the idea of Bitcoin,
representing the entire blockchain is no good. That's
true. I think we need to and you're not the only person that
does this. I do it too where instead of like, when we talk
about the blockchain, we use the word Bitcoin. We need to use the
word blockchain. That's true, because that's where the value
lies. Bitcoin is just another coin. It goes like this. The
blockchain is the fundamentals. It's like if you're talking
about baseball, not just going to talk about the Yankees. Well,
it's about baseball. Well, while you're in New York, my point is,
is that bitcoins just a part of the entire process. And then
people just focus on Bitcoin as blockchain technology, which is
so far from the truth. And if you really look into what
blockchain technology is, the between flash loans and the
ledgers I mean, we've written about it. It's truly the value
is limitless, you know, it's not leveraged in whoever does is
going to make a boatload of cash.
Sean Murray: Yeah. Once they capitalize on the utility aspect
of it, you know, I we look at what Jack Dorsey is doing over
at Square which is now blocked. Yep. And he's known as like a
Bitcoin Maxy. Because Bitcoin you were talking about
blockchain. You were saying it's fun it's about blockchain. You
had Jack Dorsey saying no, it's about Bitcoin. But Jack Dorsey
is a smart person. Like really smart, right? And he's kind of
gone all in on the concept of Bitcoin. And sure, his firm
makes a lot of money off of selling and stuff. But I think
ultimately, he recognized he's sort of, he's kind of like the
anarchist, you know, like, like, you know, segment of Silicon
Valley's of tech, even in the, you know, what I mean? Like,
anti this anti that, you know, with the big beard and all and
all that other stuff, right? He, he, though, is very smart. And I
like watching and seeing what he's doing what he's saying,
even if I sometimes don't agree with it. Because I think he is
right on the part that this stuff is not going to go away.
And when people are like, why are you writing about this
stuff? You know, in a world of like lending, it's because well,
so many people for years in lending have been trying to
figure out how can we get money to people the fastest? How can
get money to people that you know, the cheapest, and payments
is inevitably tied into lending. No matter what I've heard about
it nonstop for more than a decade. We're going to use the
credit card processing to take a percentage we need to ACH the
account. Next ACH isn't enough. We need to do same day ACH and
the problem with ACH is that once you do the ACH it takes
five days to clear the ACH we need to figure out a new way to
do the payment it's a whole thing yeah, all you people
worrying about payments all day long. And then someone comes in
says hey, you do this for payments. Why you talking about
payments? You know why? What is this? Right? We're like we're
lending companies. I don't want to hear about payments. Sorry,
this is payments. It's a no, the massively disruptive part of
payments that I think that everyone needs to pay attention
to, no matter what part of finance you're working,
especially in lending. Yeah, there's already somebody in this
industry in this particular small business finance industry
who's already using crypto as a way to fund businesses
instantly. Yeah, that person that business owner is like,
that's great that you can ACH me tomorrow, I need the money right
now. Or I'm talking to three of your competitors first person to
get get me the money is the winner, I'll sign that contract?
You're gonna What are you gonna be like, Well, no, I don't like
crypto so and then the person who was crypto is gonna be like,
I win. Yep. There's value in that
Adam Zaki: Theres value, too. I mean, especially talking about
the approval process, you're gonna merchants credit sucks.
You got a 400 credit score. But on the blockchain, they borrow
money and pay back well, and they have a blockchain as credit
score, you can justify funding them. That's true, you know, so
there's, there's so many different ways that lenders can
utilize this. And I know that the buzzwords Bitcoin, crypto,
NFT they're sick of it. But they just they're gotta take their
lender hat off and put their learning hat on. And take out
the whether or not the number is going up aspect. They'll go
well, Bitcoin is down now or this crypto is down now. That's
not what crypto is. And that's not why we write about it.
No, not at all. I don't care about the value of any coin. You
know, I mean, in my deBanked life, the money in crypto a
little bit. Yeah, but but in terms of the turnout enough for
him to be completed. Not at all, less than $100. My point is, is
like I think that the value is not in the coins. It's not in
the up and down. Don't look at a graph read. That's how you
should that's how you should learn about blockchain
technology. Forget about the graphs, forget about the values,
read and watch videos of people explaining it. That's how I
learned
Sean Murray: The utility of it. The utility of not now what
about which one's gonna go up? You know, like, what cause I do
get that question? Sean, you know, it seems like you know,
about crypto, which one should I buy? Which one's going up? Like,
yeah, that's just give up. Now.
Adam Zaki: That's I asking, that's like asking somebody,
what stock should I buy?
Sean Murray: It's the exact same exact sentence. It's the exact
same. No there's utility to it. And once once people realize
what the utility is, and how they can capitalize on that
utility in whatever business they're in, in finance, or
whatever it is, that's when that's when you'll be able to
really make a difference and continue your business for the
long term.
Adam Zaki: 100%