1
00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:08.490
Okay, hello everybody, it's Sean
Murray here with deBanked News

2
00:00:08.490 --> 00:00:12.780
and today I'm here with Chris
Hurn at Fountainhead. Chris, why

3
00:00:12.780 --> 00:00:15.000
don't you tell me a little bit
about your company and about

4
00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:16.530
your background in the industry?

5
00:00:16.530 --> 00:00:19.590
Sure, sure. We're a nationwide
direct commercial lender. We

6
00:00:19.590 --> 00:00:24.360
specialize in SBA 7(a) SBA 504
and we have a low LTV

7
00:00:24.360 --> 00:00:27.990
conventional product, that we
oftentimes will refinance out

8
00:00:28.020 --> 00:00:30.750
other SBA products and it's only
on our owner occupied commercial

9
00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:31.170
real estate.

10
00:00:33.530 --> 00:00:35.990
So would you consider your- you
are a non bank?

11
00:00:36.020 --> 00:00:37.430
That's right, correct. That's
great.

12
00:00:37.430 --> 00:00:40.200
Would you consider yourself a
fintech company?

13
00:00:42.250 --> 00:00:44.680
I mean, it's, you know, the
fintech definition seems to be

14
00:00:44.680 --> 00:00:47.950
evolving over the, over the last
five, six years. I wouldn't

15
00:00:47.950 --> 00:00:51.790
probably classify us
traditionally as a FinTech. We

16
00:00:51.790 --> 00:00:55.180
are a non bank direct lender.
We're one of the 14 small

17
00:00:55.180 --> 00:00:58.450
business lending companies which
are which are regulated by SBA.

18
00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:03.430
And we're clearly tech enabled,
which I think everybody is these

19
00:01:03.430 --> 00:01:06.280
days that's a non bank, which is
why I think it's so easy for a

20
00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:09.640
lot of people to put non banks
in the FinTech space. But we are

21
00:01:09.640 --> 00:01:12.280
definitely lenders first,
technologists second. And I

22
00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.700
think if you have to make a
distinction of FinTech versus

23
00:01:15.700 --> 00:01:19.480
other lenders out there, a lot
of other lenders, FinTech

24
00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:22.120
lenders, I should say, are
technologists first and then and

25
00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.600
then lenders second. And then of
course, you know, the, the lines

26
00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:27.400
have been blurred, as you know,
Sean, because there's a lot of

27
00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:30.520
brokers out there as well who
sort of put themselves out as

28
00:01:30.700 --> 00:01:34.810
direct lenders or and or FinTech
guys who really aren't

29
00:01:34.810 --> 00:01:37.180
necessarily they're just
brokering transactions. That's

30
00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:40.330
not the case for us. It's all of
our, our paper we make we, make

31
00:01:40.330 --> 00:01:41.170
the loans ourselves.

32
00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:46.859
Got it. So as a lender, I
imagine that you must have had

33
00:01:46.859 --> 00:01:50.969
an interesting past few months,
like, what was it like for you?

34
00:01:50.969 --> 00:01:54.089
And did you participate in the
whole PPP process?

35
00:01:55.650 --> 00:01:59.610
Yeah, the short answer is yes.
We as we did participate, we did

36
00:01:59.610 --> 00:02:04.260
a little over 8,200 PPP loans
with my team of 28 full timers,

37
00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:09.450
which is a pretty Herculean
task, if I do say so myself. We,

38
00:02:09.870 --> 00:02:14.580
my life in the last six months
has been, has been a lot of, a

39
00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:17.340
lot of lows, the occasional
high, which I noticed the

40
00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:21.570
inverse of that saying, We've
had a lot of chaos. There's been

41
00:02:21.570 --> 00:02:25.470
a tremendous surge of demand,
obviously, for, for folks like

42
00:02:25.470 --> 00:02:28.410
us in the lending community. As
we were talking before we got

43
00:02:28.410 --> 00:02:30.990
on, you know, it's we do feel
like we were on the front lines

44
00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:34.350
of a lot of this we've, we've
had our fair share of, of

45
00:02:34.350 --> 00:02:38.760
threats and curses put upon us
and, you know, extra security

46
00:02:38.760 --> 00:02:42.210
measures, whether it be extra
police patrolling or what have

47
00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:44.640
you. And I think a lot of this
was because there was just so

48
00:02:44.640 --> 00:02:48.900
much chaos with how PPP was
rolled out. There was, you know,

49
00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:53.460
there's been 24 interim final
rules now. I believe we're up to

50
00:02:53.490 --> 00:02:57.750
frequently asked question number
54 if I'm not mistaken. There's,

51
00:02:57.780 --> 00:03:00.990
you know, the rolling
regulations of this, it just is

52
00:03:00.990 --> 00:03:04.470
sewed a lot of uncertainty. And
people in the lending community

53
00:03:04.470 --> 00:03:08.100
obviously don't like ambiguity.
When when business owners,

54
00:03:08.100 --> 00:03:10.800
businesses are potentially on
the line, they don't like

55
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.620
ambiguity as well. And frankly,
some of the time we didn't have

56
00:03:13.620 --> 00:03:16.950
very good answers for people.
And through no fault of our own,

57
00:03:16.950 --> 00:03:21.360
and also through no fault of any
of the parties associated with

58
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.700
all this. I mean, I think
everybody came from a place of

59
00:03:23.700 --> 00:03:27.840
great intentions. But it was
just, you know, the money we

60
00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.000
were trying to everyone was
trying to rush the money out the

61
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.900
door to save the businesses and
the jobs so fast, that it just

62
00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:38.280
was a mess. And it continues to
be a mess. And at this point, we

63
00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.680
just kind of laugh it off and
say, well, what else do we

64
00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:43.200
expect? It's, it's PPP. You
know, we have, we have people

65
00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:46.380
now, dozens of people every day
calling to tell us that they've,

66
00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:49.560
they've done all their
forgiveness application, and

67
00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:51.030
they have all their
documentation, and we're

68
00:03:51.030 --> 00:03:53.880
regularly telling them well, you
may want to wait, because,

69
00:03:54.090 --> 00:03:56.400
candidly, there's probably going
to be some legislative and

70
00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:00.930
regulatory changes in the next
few weeks. And, you know, that's

71
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.690
a bit unsettling to some of
these folks. And, you know,

72
00:04:03.690 --> 00:04:08.130
again, we've, we've had, we've
had tremendous, you know, emails

73
00:04:08.130 --> 00:04:11.610
and, and cards and gifts and
everything else from people that

74
00:04:11.640 --> 00:04:15.000
claim we've saved all sorts of
jobs. And we've also had the

75
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.730
other end of the spectrum,
which, you know, we've, we've

76
00:04:17.730 --> 00:04:21.330
caught hundreds of fraudsters
trying to defraud the government

77
00:04:21.330 --> 00:04:25.410
and the US taxpayer. And those
tend to be the most, the

78
00:04:25.410 --> 00:04:28.260
nastiest people that we deal
with the ones that have brought

79
00:04:28.260 --> 00:04:32.220
some of my staff to tears on the
phone, who've threatened us,

80
00:04:32.250 --> 00:04:34.980
have called us every name under
the book, you know, all sorts of

81
00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:39.000
things. And it's just, it's it's
been a, it's been a very

82
00:04:39.090 --> 00:04:41.940
interesting time. I think that's
that famous saying that curse

83
00:04:41.940 --> 00:04:44.310
that may you live in interesting
times. I think we've definitely

84
00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:48.300
lived in interesting times these
last six months. Don't really

85
00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:51.480
want to go back and repeat it.
Although I know that there's

86
00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:55.920
probably going to be some new
iteration of PPP and or

87
00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.280
enhancements to existing SBA
programs going forward. So we'll

88
00:04:59.280 --> 00:05:01.770
see perhaps the lending
community is a little more

89
00:05:01.770 --> 00:05:05.220
prepared to deal with it,
although I will tell you, most

90
00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:09.030
of us are, are are fatigued
with, with PPP and are doing the

91
00:05:09.030 --> 00:05:12.150
best we can, you know, going
forward, we're trying to try to

92
00:05:12.150 --> 00:05:13.890
save as many folks as we can,
obviously.

93
00:05:15.270 --> 00:05:19.080
Yeah, wow, it sounds like you're
on the legitimate, like real

94
00:05:19.080 --> 00:05:22.140
front lines. It's one thing to
read a story about how

95
00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:25.920
businesses are doing. But I can
only imagine trying to work with

96
00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.710
them in their, you know, with
their finances, it's got to be,

97
00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:31.230
well, as you said, it's pretty
stressful.

98
00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.780
It's been, it's been more
stressful than I could ever

99
00:05:34.780 --> 00:05:39.070
imagine. And I'm sure my staff
feels the same way. You know,

100
00:05:39.070 --> 00:05:41.020
and I don't want to make light
of the fact we're not on any

101
00:05:41.020 --> 00:05:43.720
medical front lines or anything
like that. I mean, there's

102
00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.420
there's some certain amazing
heroes out there. I don't know

103
00:05:46.420 --> 00:05:50.740
if you'd consider us economic
front lines or whatnot. But But,

104
00:05:51.190 --> 00:05:53.950
you know, we've I feel like
we've definitely punched well

105
00:05:53.950 --> 00:05:56.260
above our weight. And we've
continued to do some of our

106
00:05:56.260 --> 00:05:58.570
regular business as well. I
mean, there's been, there were a

107
00:05:58.570 --> 00:06:02.050
lot of some of the largest PPP
lenders out there such as

108
00:06:02.050 --> 00:06:05.260
ourselves, who basically shut
down their regular business. We

109
00:06:05.260 --> 00:06:07.450
didn't quite shut it down
entirely. We did, we did our

110
00:06:07.450 --> 00:06:09.640
fair share of regular business
over the last six months as

111
00:06:09.640 --> 00:06:12.970
well. And, and today marks our
first official day fully

112
00:06:12.970 --> 00:06:16.060
pivoting back to regular
business or trying to, well, we

113
00:06:16.060 --> 00:06:19.180
kind of clean up some of the
some of the mess and, you know,

114
00:06:19.210 --> 00:06:23.920
and again, demand surges out
there for regular SBA lending as

115
00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:24.250
well.

116
00:06:24.700 --> 00:06:28.720
Well, congrats on coming back
to, you know, some normalcy.

117
00:06:30.970 --> 00:06:33.670
I'm not sure if we're there yet,
but okay, I'll take it.

118
00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:39.960
Um, so, during the last few
months, one trend that I, I've

119
00:06:39.960 --> 00:06:45.330
heard a bunch is the experience
that business owners had,

120
00:06:45.510 --> 00:06:49.350
perhaps with the banks they
worked with, right? When PPP

121
00:06:49.350 --> 00:06:53.310
came out, I think a lot of them
rushed to their bank to get PPP

122
00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:58.710
money, and banks necessarily
weren't ready yet or they didn't

123
00:06:58.710 --> 00:07:01.920
know what the rules were. And
that might have kind of poisoned

124
00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.970
the well in a relationship that
they'd had for a long time. And

125
00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:08.310
so I'm curious what it's been
like for you as a non bank

126
00:07:08.310 --> 00:07:10.560
lender, do you feel like the
events of the last few months

127
00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:15.300
have changed how business owners
and people view non banks?

128
00:07:16.260 --> 00:07:20.580
Yeah, I think it has, I mean, I
think the trend was, was there

129
00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:24.330
prior to any of this pandemic
and the shutdowns and PPP and

130
00:07:24.330 --> 00:07:29.430
whatnot, which was the trend
away from customer loyalty to

131
00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:33.480
the big banks, or any bank for
that matter, as, as technology

132
00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:37.050
continues to evolve, I think
more and more people, you know,

133
00:07:37.170 --> 00:07:39.600
they don't want to go into a
bank branch, for instance,

134
00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:44.040
they'd much rather operate off
of their smartphone or online,

135
00:07:44.070 --> 00:07:47.160
you know, on their desktop, or
what have you. And I think what

136
00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:51.270
this event has done is just
simply accelerate that, and some

137
00:07:51.270 --> 00:07:54.960
of it is the fault of some of
the banking community who had

138
00:07:54.960 --> 00:07:58.890
very rigid requirements about
who they would give PPP money

139
00:07:58.890 --> 00:08:02.760
for, to I should say, you know,
things like they had to be a

140
00:08:02.760 --> 00:08:05.520
customer and they had to have
some sort of a relationship

141
00:08:05.520 --> 00:08:09.000
already. And, of course, they
claimed it was because of

142
00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:12.090
know-your-customer reasons and
things of that nature. But I

143
00:08:12.090 --> 00:08:16.710
think it was a way for them to,
you know, to simply vet the

144
00:08:16.710 --> 00:08:19.620
customers, prioritize who they'd
want to deal with. I mean, it's,

145
00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:22.140
it's clear, you can look at the
statistics, you know, the

146
00:08:22.140 --> 00:08:25.140
limited statistics that have
been released the the round 1 of

147
00:08:25.140 --> 00:08:30.360
PPP, the average PPP loan was
much larger than round 2, you

148
00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.940
know, a disproportionate amount
of those, of those loans were

149
00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:36.420
made by some of the biggest
banks. When you get to round

150
00:08:36.420 --> 00:08:40.020
two, you see a lot more
participation from non banks,

151
00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:44.220
from smaller community banks,
from CDFIs, from credit unions,

152
00:08:44.220 --> 00:08:49.920
etc. And, you know, I, but your
comment about sort of the

153
00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:54.510
disgruntledness, I guess, we'll
call it with, with someone's

154
00:08:54.510 --> 00:09:00.060
existing bank at the beginning
of this PPP timeframe to now I

155
00:09:00.060 --> 00:09:02.730
mean, I literally I saw, I went
to my doctor, I haven't been to

156
00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:05.280
a doctor in six months, went to
my doctor this morning, and she

157
00:09:05.280 --> 00:09:08.670
talked about how frustrated she
was in dealing with one of the

158
00:09:08.670 --> 00:09:11.250
largest banks, which is where
she banked and how she wants to

159
00:09:11.250 --> 00:09:13.980
move her accounts. But we're
still in the middle of this

160
00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:16.950
crisis. And it's a bit of a
hassle to move accounts, and

161
00:09:16.950 --> 00:09:21.090
she'll get there eventually. But
I hear that frustration all the

162
00:09:21.090 --> 00:09:26.130
time. So I think, I think what
this period of time has done is

163
00:09:26.130 --> 00:09:30.810
just simply accelerate the
disloyalty that the typical

164
00:09:30.810 --> 00:09:35.340
business owner has to, to the
big banks, for sure, and maybe

165
00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:38.130
even some of the small to mid
size as well. I mean, the folks

166
00:09:38.130 --> 00:09:42.120
that really seem to have stepped
up the most, for PPP for the

167
00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:46.200
small business community were in
fact, the fintechs, the non

168
00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.520
banks, the smaller community
banks, and credit unions, you

169
00:09:50.520 --> 00:09:54.750
know, relative to the hundreds
of thousands of employees at

170
00:09:54.750 --> 00:09:58.770
some of these big banks. I mean,
you know, my folks, you know, my

171
00:09:58.770 --> 00:10:02.970
team did about 294 loans on
average per full time employee.

172
00:10:03.270 --> 00:10:06.750
If, If you extrapolate that to
some of the biggest banks in the

173
00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:09.360
country, that means they would
have done millions of PPP loans

174
00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.420
and the truth of the matter is
we only did what $5.7 million

175
00:10:12.630 --> 00:10:17.610
total PPP loans. So that's,
it's, it shows a little bit of a

176
00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:19.950
disconnect. I don't, I don't
think they even really wanted to

177
00:10:19.950 --> 00:10:22.620
bother with some of these. I
think this was more of a

178
00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:25.170
hindrance and a nuisance. Of
course, when you got the chaos

179
00:10:25.170 --> 00:10:28.230
and and the panic that was
thrown in, it really became

180
00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:30.960
something that I think a lot of
the largest lenders just wish

181
00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:32.370
they would never have
participated in.

182
00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:39.860
I've heard that too that If- and
I think the whole forgiveness

183
00:10:39.860 --> 00:10:42.380
aspect too that they're not
looking forward to it. I think

184
00:10:42.770 --> 00:10:46.970
that the, the lobby to just do
blanket forgiveness is not just

185
00:10:46.970 --> 00:10:50.180
coming from the business owners,
right. Not coming from the

186
00:10:50.180 --> 00:10:52.340
financial institutions who are
like it's just going to be a

187
00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:53.480
massive nightmare.

188
00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:54.080
Right?

189
00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:56.990
It's easier to just kind of give
a clean slate. That's what,

190
00:10:56.990 --> 00:10:57.710
that's what I've heard.

191
00:10:58.190 --> 00:11:00.890
Yeah, well, I think it'll be
good for for both parties. I

192
00:11:00.890 --> 00:11:03.500
mean, I think it's good for the
borrowers. Because they, as I've

193
00:11:03.500 --> 00:11:05.660
said, in many interviews, they
don't need to spend, you know,

194
00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:08.330
2, 3, 4 hours working on this,
which is probably what it's

195
00:11:08.330 --> 00:11:10.970
going to take for a lot of
folks. And then the lending

196
00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:13.700
community, I mean, you know, we
need to get back to lending, if

197
00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:16.100
that's possible. And certainly,
hopefully, there'll be

198
00:11:16.490 --> 00:11:19.700
enhancements coming from other
government guaranteed programs,

199
00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:23.330
such as the SBA stuff that we
can, we can participate in and

200
00:11:23.330 --> 00:11:25.400
really try to help more of these
business owners. We don't need

201
00:11:25.400 --> 00:11:28.520
to be spending hours and hours,
you know, certifying forgiveness

202
00:11:28.520 --> 00:11:31.520
applications. I understand it at
some level. And you certainly

203
00:11:31.520 --> 00:11:35.390
want to prevent fraudulent uses
of the funds. But there's,

204
00:11:35.420 --> 00:11:38.450
there's everybody's time is
better spent moving on and

205
00:11:38.450 --> 00:11:39.320
getting past this.

206
00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:43.730
So as far as getting back to
lending, I want to switch gears

207
00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:45.920
and ask you about commercial
real estate.

208
00:11:46.190 --> 00:11:46.580
Okay.

209
00:11:47.270 --> 00:11:49.100
I think a lot of people are
trying to figure out the real

210
00:11:49.100 --> 00:11:51.470
estate market in general, now,
it's going up, is it going down?

211
00:11:51.470 --> 00:11:53.810
Is it the city, is it the
suburbs? You know, is it

212
00:11:53.990 --> 00:11:56.930
residential or commercial? What
kind of trends are you seeing in

213
00:11:56.930 --> 00:11:59.030
the commercial real estate
market right now?

214
00:11:59.510 --> 00:12:03.440
Well, what I'm seeing is, it's
again, it's evolving, you know,

215
00:12:03.500 --> 00:12:08.210
hourly, daily, weekly, as we all
know, I mean, you know, for the

216
00:12:08.210 --> 00:12:11.810
previous 20 plus years of my, my
business life in small business,

217
00:12:12.590 --> 00:12:15.530
financing, I used to tell people
that they shouldn't make their

218
00:12:15.530 --> 00:12:17.870
landlord wealthy they should,
they should own their commercial

219
00:12:17.870 --> 00:12:20.720
real estate. And for the most
part, that's been good advice

220
00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.170
until recently, when, when now
we have the technology where

221
00:12:24.170 --> 00:12:28.610
people can work from wherever
for the most part. And so, you

222
00:12:28.610 --> 00:12:31.610
know, we own our own commercial
real estate here, outside of

223
00:12:31.610 --> 00:12:34.100
Orlando, where we're based on
the northeast side of Orlando,

224
00:12:34.100 --> 00:12:37.340
and, you know, I still have
probably half of my team here

225
00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:41.270
locally, that work remotely. We,
we leased space in our other

226
00:12:41.270 --> 00:12:46.250
office in Denver. I think we
might have 20% of our team in

227
00:12:46.250 --> 00:12:49.940
Denver, that's, that's actually
in the office these days. And

228
00:12:49.940 --> 00:12:54.530
then the rest of our team works,
works remotely already. So, you

229
00:12:54.530 --> 00:12:56.630
know, I think everybody's kind
of scratching their head

230
00:12:56.630 --> 00:13:01.280
wondering, is it you know, how
important is it? I think it is

231
00:13:01.280 --> 00:13:07.010
invaluable when you have younger
team members to be able to learn

232
00:13:07.040 --> 00:13:10.160
from more senior folks and it's
really tough to do that on a

233
00:13:10.160 --> 00:13:14.120
Zoom call. So I think that is,
that's an important feature, I

234
00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.160
think that's why you start,
you're starting to see some of

235
00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:19.160
the largest corporations who
were, who were very early on to

236
00:13:19.160 --> 00:13:21.350
this, you know, we're all going
to work from home for the next

237
00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:24.290
two years or whatever. Some of
the big technology companies

238
00:13:24.290 --> 00:13:26.840
even declared that and now you
actually see them reversing

239
00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:29.480
course and saying, Well, maybe
not so much, maybe we actually

240
00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:34.190
will get back to the office and
that way we can, you know, rub

241
00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:37.220
elbows and shoulders and
actually, you know, that's,

242
00:13:37.310 --> 00:13:40.790
that's where the real magic
happens in the business. So I

243
00:13:40.790 --> 00:13:44.450
think there's, there's
definitely something to that, in

244
00:13:44.450 --> 00:13:47.330
terms of the value of commercial
real estate, I think it has

245
00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:51.590
probably taken a little bit of a
hit. You know, it really depends

246
00:13:51.590 --> 00:13:55.520
if it's owner, user or investor.
You know, clearly residential

247
00:13:55.550 --> 00:13:58.910
real estate seems to be
thriving, as right now, as we're

248
00:13:58.910 --> 00:14:03.140
talking about this. It's, It's
very hot to me that it shouldn't

249
00:14:03.140 --> 00:14:05.420
really surprise anybody who's
been paying attention for a

250
00:14:05.420 --> 00:14:08.690
while, however, because we
really haven't had enough

251
00:14:08.690 --> 00:14:13.910
inventory of single family homes
over the last since last

252
00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:17.660
recession. I mean, we were
really behind. And so I think

253
00:14:17.930 --> 00:14:21.770
you're going to see us, as a
country catch up a lot over the

254
00:14:21.770 --> 00:14:24.410
next couple years on that and,
and that actually will be very

255
00:14:24.410 --> 00:14:27.290
good for the economy because it
has a tremendous multiplying

256
00:14:27.290 --> 00:14:30.800
effect from the housing
industry. So I think that's

257
00:14:30.800 --> 00:14:33.890
positive. Obviously, the Fed is
going to be extremely

258
00:14:33.920 --> 00:14:37.130
accommodating for quite some
time. So that's also very

259
00:14:37.130 --> 00:14:41.960
positive in terms of, in terms
of terms of housing. You know,

260
00:14:42.110 --> 00:14:45.200
I've seen both sides of it,
people arguing about the flight

261
00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.980
to the suburbs, from the dense
urban metro areas and if that's

262
00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:53.330
really happening or not, I don't
have any grand insight into

263
00:14:53.330 --> 00:14:56.540
that, Sean, but, you know, my
office is in the suburbs, I live

264
00:14:56.540 --> 00:15:00.050
in the suburbs, I welcome it, I
hope. I hope there's more demand

265
00:15:00.050 --> 00:15:03.170
because that'll, that'll be
positive for us. But, but, you

266
00:15:03.170 --> 00:15:06.050
know, I still do a lot of things
culturally in the cities, and

267
00:15:06.230 --> 00:15:09.920
that that'd be a real shame if
they're, you know, the streets

268
00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:10.640
are pretty vacant.

269
00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:14.300
Yeah. You mentioned before that
tech companies, some of them,

270
00:15:15.350 --> 00:15:17.630
they don't feel that they're
going to be remote forever. I

271
00:15:17.630 --> 00:15:22.940
think we seem to just here in
New York, Facebook and Amazon

272
00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:25.490
combined have acquire more than
a million square feet of office

273
00:15:25.490 --> 00:15:30.230
space, just, just in the last
month. So I think they might be

274
00:15:30.230 --> 00:15:33.230
kind of, you know, prodding
everyone along "Oh, you know,

275
00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:35.750
everyone leave" and then you
know, they're getting the office

276
00:15:35.750 --> 00:15:38.000
space on the cheap. I think,
I'm-

277
00:15:38.330 --> 00:15:40.010
Right. Well, contrarian on their
part?

278
00:15:40.040 --> 00:15:42.830
Yeah, that's that's what I
think. But

279
00:15:42.830 --> 00:15:43.850
It could be, it could be.

280
00:15:44.750 --> 00:15:47.780
Yeah, I mean, well, I guess
we'll find out. You know, it's a

281
00:15:47.780 --> 00:15:51.020
matter of time, which leads me
to my next question. What do you

282
00:15:51.020 --> 00:15:53.540
think is going to happen next?
How do you think this recovery

283
00:15:53.780 --> 00:15:55.790
is going to shape up? What do
you think is gonna happen in

284
00:15:55.790 --> 00:15:56.330
your opinion?

285
00:15:58.250 --> 00:16:01.250
Boy, that's that's a good
question. I know, it's a

286
00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:04.430
question on everybody's minds.
And I don't, I don't have any

287
00:16:04.430 --> 00:16:12.470
grand you know, prognostications
here. I mean, I think I want, I

288
00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:15.620
hope, and I believe that we have
the ability to turn things

289
00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:20.660
around and get back to growing
the economy again. I think this

290
00:16:20.660 --> 00:16:25.760
is just such a once in a
lifetime type of an event,

291
00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:31.190
hopefully, that, you know,
government has to participate in

292
00:16:31.190 --> 00:16:35.180
stimulus and recovery efforts. I
mean, normally I would, I would,

293
00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:37.250
I would be freaking out about
how we're going to pay for this

294
00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:40.100
all but I just think we've never
seen anything quite like this.

295
00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:44.330
And then, you know, in at least
100 years. So I think, well, if

296
00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:46.610
ever, I mean, I don't know, if
ever, if there's ever been a

297
00:16:46.610 --> 00:16:49.940
time where, you know, the
world's largest economy is

298
00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:53.240
virtually shut down over the
course of a couple months. So,

299
00:16:54.110 --> 00:16:57.710
you know, I think I've been a
huge supporter of the small

300
00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:02.060
business community for my whole
career. I'm a passionate

301
00:17:02.060 --> 00:17:05.870
entrepreneur myself, I want to
see entrepreneurs succeed, I

302
00:17:05.870 --> 00:17:09.980
know how powerful their impact
is, throughout the greater

303
00:17:10.490 --> 00:17:14.180
society. And I find it just
heartbreaking that there's going

304
00:17:14.180 --> 00:17:17.240
to be so many folks that never
come back from this. And it

305
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:20.780
doesn't frankly matter how much
money government tries to throw

306
00:17:20.780 --> 00:17:22.970
at it, whether directly or
through private sector lenders

307
00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:25.670
like ourselves. I mean, I think
it's, I think it's going to be a

308
00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:28.640
little bit of time, I think it's
pretty obvious there's, there's

309
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:30.710
probably not going to be a V
shaped recovery, which I think a

310
00:17:30.710 --> 00:17:36.380
lot of us were hoping for. But I
also see some some glimmers of

311
00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:39.980
hope in the economic data that I
see on a weekly or monthly

312
00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:43.970
basis. And, you know, I think, I
think we're back on the right

313
00:17:43.970 --> 00:17:47.600
track, we clearly have to
contain the virus and the

314
00:17:47.600 --> 00:17:51.110
transmission of the virus. But,
you know, I'm not going to be

315
00:17:51.110 --> 00:17:54.500
surprised if, if a year from
now, we're chugging along it,

316
00:17:54.890 --> 00:17:59.300
you know, at more than 4% growth
quarterly. Again, I think you're

317
00:17:59.300 --> 00:18:02.060
gonna see some crazy numbers
clearly in the near term,

318
00:18:02.060 --> 00:18:05.750
because we're bouncing off of
some, some artificial lows. But,

319
00:18:06.050 --> 00:18:09.230
But I think to get back to a,
hopefully a targeted, you know,

320
00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:14.210
4% yearly GDP growth would be
tremendous and that would that

321
00:18:14.210 --> 00:18:17.060
would lift a lot of people out
of poverty, that would get a lot

322
00:18:17.060 --> 00:18:21.500
of folks back on, on payrolls.
And that then I think that's

323
00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:24.770
what we can we can inspire to,
and I think we can get there. I

324
00:18:24.770 --> 00:18:28.130
mean, but I don't have any great
secrets here, Sean, I'm not sure

325
00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:31.250
how we're how we're going to do
it other than I just think you

326
00:18:31.250 --> 00:18:34.310
don't, you don't bet against the
American people because we've,

327
00:18:34.610 --> 00:18:38.270
we've shown it time and again,
that we have a very strong

328
00:18:38.270 --> 00:18:42.380
resiliency and and people want
to get back to work, they want

329
00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:45.650
to get back to some sort of
sense of normalcy. So I think

330
00:18:46.220 --> 00:18:49.100
there's the animal spirits are
out there, Sean, whether it's

331
00:18:49.100 --> 00:18:52.160
Facebook and Amazon gobbling up
commercial real estate on the

332
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.310
cheap or where you got people
that are now starting

333
00:18:55.310 --> 00:18:58.730
businesses, I mean, they you
know, the startup, the startup

334
00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:01.970
numbers are off the charts in
the last couple months because I

335
00:19:01.970 --> 00:19:04.400
guess people are, they've caught
up on all their binge watching

336
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:06.950
at home and they're and they
want to do something and now's

337
00:19:06.950 --> 00:19:09.320
as good a time as any to get
started and make it happen and

338
00:19:09.320 --> 00:19:11.270
create the big companies of the
future.

339
00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:16.280
Chris Hurn CEO Fountainhead,
Chris thank you so much for

340
00:19:16.280 --> 00:19:18.020
being here. Really appreciate
your time.

341
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:19.679
Thanks for having me, Sean. Take
care.