1 00:00:04.920 --> 00:00:06.570 Sean Murray: Well, hello, everybody. My name is Sean 2 00:00:06.570 --> 00:00:10.200 Murray. I'm the president and chief editor of deBanked. And I 3 00:00:10.200 --> 00:00:14.940 am here with Hansen Rada, the CEO of Tax Guard. How you doing? 4 00:00:15.270 --> 00:00:16.830 Hansen Rada: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. 5 00:00:17.190 --> 00:00:20.310 Sean Murray: No problem. Can you tell me a little bit about Tax 6 00:00:20.310 --> 00:00:21.870 Guard and the history of the company? 7 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:25.530 Hansen Rada: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting history, we started 8 00:00:25.890 --> 00:00:31.470 back in the Great Recession back in 2009. And I own another and 9 00:00:31.470 --> 00:00:36.060 co-founded another business that helps small businesses and 10 00:00:36.060 --> 00:00:38.910 individuals that have tax liabilities with state or the 11 00:00:38.910 --> 00:00:42.660 federal government. And at the time, that company has been 12 00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:46.140 around for about 23 years, we represented about 7,000 13 00:00:46.140 --> 00:00:49.800 companies that owed money to the IRS. So they came in our doors 14 00:00:49.800 --> 00:00:53.670 saying, "we have a problem, tax liens been filed, help us 15 00:00:53.670 --> 00:00:58.500 resolve it." And I started to talk to these small businesses 16 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:01.230 and realized something really kind of fascinating that all of 17 00:01:01.230 --> 00:01:04.230 them were able to get loans, they were able to go to banks, 18 00:01:04.290 --> 00:01:07.590 non-bank financers. And they were able to get financing. And 19 00:01:07.590 --> 00:01:10.020 I kept scratching my head saying, "Well, how is it that 20 00:01:10.020 --> 00:01:13.200 you can get a loan when you have this huge tax liability?" And 21 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:17.400 they would look at me and say, "because they don't know." And I 22 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:19.440 was like, "wait a minute, what do you mean, they don't know?" 23 00:01:19.710 --> 00:01:22.200 And so through the years of my working with the collection 24 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.600 division of the IRS, I realized that there was this real 25 00:01:24.600 --> 00:01:28.140 disconnect between if you owe money to the federal government, 26 00:01:28.140 --> 00:01:30.750 whether the federal government actually ever files a tax lien 27 00:01:30.750 --> 00:01:34.950 or not. And so if businesses are just looking to the public 28 00:01:34.950 --> 00:01:38.700 record, you know, lien searches, credit reports, trying to 29 00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:42.420 identify tax problems based on the federal government filing a 30 00:01:42.420 --> 00:01:46.050 tax lien, well, they're going to be out of luck. Because the 31 00:01:46.050 --> 00:01:49.500 reality is the IRS can levy bank accounts, seize bank accounts, 32 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:51.660 and take collection action against these businesses, 33 00:01:52.020 --> 00:01:56.970 whether they file a lien or not. It just doesn't matter. So I 34 00:01:56.970 --> 00:01:59.340 started putting my head to it, talking to a bunch of companies 35 00:01:59.340 --> 00:02:01.590 and realized that, you know, if I could create some sort of 36 00:02:01.590 --> 00:02:04.950 report that created a level of transparent playing field, where 37 00:02:04.950 --> 00:02:08.160 the lenders would know in real time, whether that business owes 38 00:02:08.160 --> 00:02:11.550 money to the government or not, somebody would pay me money for 39 00:02:11.550 --> 00:02:15.630 it. And so that's how we started Tax Guard. Because I want to 40 00:02:15.630 --> 00:02:18.960 emphasize, you know, having a tax liability, it's a cash flow 41 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.320 problem, right? I mean, it's I don't have enough money, I have 42 00:02:22.320 --> 00:02:25.530 to pay my rent, or I don't have a place to work, I have to pay 43 00:02:25.530 --> 00:02:28.290 my employees, they don't show up. But if I don't pay the 44 00:02:28.290 --> 00:02:32.040 federal government the taxes, in other words, I pay my payroll, 45 00:02:32.040 --> 00:02:34.440 but I don't hand that money over, that's due at that time to 46 00:02:34.440 --> 00:02:39.300 the IRS, nobody knows. It's the easiest loan to get. I just 47 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:42.780 don't write the check. And so what happens is it becomes a 48 00:02:42.780 --> 00:02:46.500 lender-first resort, and you create these off balance sheet 49 00:02:46.500 --> 00:02:50.700 liabilities. So the tax liability is not the disease, 50 00:02:51.060 --> 00:02:53.220 right? It's a symptom of the disease, the disease is 51 00:02:53.220 --> 00:02:56.430 cashflow. And that's what ends up killing the business. So if 52 00:02:56.430 --> 00:02:59.400 you have insight into whether a business is paying their taxes 53 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.580 or not, you'll know whether they have the cash flow to have a 54 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:03.690 sustainable business. 55 00:03:04.290 --> 00:03:06.600 Sean Murray: So when they come to you, what kind of information 56 00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:09.540 are they able to get that they otherwise couldn't get from a 57 00:03:09.540 --> 00:03:10.320 public record? 58 00:03:10.690 --> 00:03:13.900 Hansen Rada: Sure. So in a public record, in a true sense, 59 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.770 you would get if a lien has been filed. So I think it's Experian 60 00:03:17.770 --> 00:03:21.370 did a report a couple years ago and showed that on average, it 61 00:03:21.370 --> 00:03:24.280 takes the Internal Revenue Service to file a tax lien about 62 00:03:24.310 --> 00:03:27.430 18 months on a business and about 26 months on an 63 00:03:27.430 --> 00:03:30.490 individual, you know, credit reports, for example, no longer 64 00:03:30.490 --> 00:03:34.690 covering tax liens for individuals. A few of the SEC 65 00:03:34.990 --> 00:03:37.150 Attorney General's for different states sued, because there were 66 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:39.850 a lot of false positives, you know, lien would get filed in 67 00:03:39.850 --> 00:03:42.310 New York City for John Smith and ends up on John Smith's credit 68 00:03:42.310 --> 00:03:44.920 report and John Smith's like "it's not me, and you've just 69 00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:47.680 hurt my credit." So they had to eliminate that. So a lot of the 70 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.500 credit bureaus are not covering tax liens anymore. So you're 71 00:03:50.500 --> 00:03:53.200 really looking to like UCC searches or public record 72 00:03:53.200 --> 00:03:55.570 searches at the county level to see if liens have been filed. 73 00:03:57.010 --> 00:04:00.790 But the stat that stands out is that in 2010, Internal Revenue 74 00:04:00.790 --> 00:04:05.110 Service filed about 1.3 million tax liens in the United States. 75 00:04:05.650 --> 00:04:08.920 Last year, they filed about 427,000. So it's a drop about 76 00:04:08.920 --> 00:04:13.120 56%. However, the number of individuals and businesses that 77 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:17.050 owe money to the government has gone up 36% since that time, so 78 00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:19.930 there's a real disconnect. But it kind of makes sense because 79 00:04:19.930 --> 00:04:22.900 if you're in the IRS issues, you can do a simple study and they 80 00:04:22.900 --> 00:04:26.110 have if you Google it, you can find it. And if we don't file 81 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:31.390 tax liens, people's credit scores go up. If people's credit 82 00:04:31.390 --> 00:04:35.740 scores go up, they can get a loan. If they can get a loan, 83 00:04:36.280 --> 00:04:39.370 they can pay us back. And they've actually seen by 84 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:42.160 decreasing the number of federal tax liens being filed, their 85 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:45.040 collection activity has increased. And so what they've 86 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.920 done is they've pushed the risk off onto the private sector. And 87 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:51.550 so then the information we provide is in real time, if 88 00:04:51.550 --> 00:04:54.970 there is a liability or dollars owed to the Internal Revenue 89 00:04:54.970 --> 00:04:58.360 Service, the date of our report, and the primary, I would say 90 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:01.420 thrust of that is around 941 Taxes. And what that means is 91 00:05:01.420 --> 00:05:04.900 employee withholding taxes. So, I've payroll on Friday, I'm 92 00:05:04.900 --> 00:05:09.250 paying somebody $10 an hour, I give them $7, I have to give $3 93 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:12.520 that day to the government. It's due. And if I don't pay it, 94 00:05:12.520 --> 00:05:16.240 penalties and interest begin to accrue. So if I pay $2, because 95 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.810 I was short, $1. Again, nobody really knows it happened. But 96 00:05:19.810 --> 00:05:21.970 yet I started accruing a liability and penalties and 97 00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:25.570 interest start to grow on that. And eventually, one day the IRS 98 00:05:25.570 --> 00:05:28.570 gets around to collections. So we give our customers insight 99 00:05:28.570 --> 00:05:31.750 into what is the true financial status of that business at that 100 00:05:31.750 --> 00:05:35.140 point in time? Do they owe money to the government? We also allow 101 00:05:35.140 --> 00:05:38.350 them to monitor payroll deposits, you know, prime 102 00:05:38.350 --> 00:05:40.420 example of what we're going through right now with COVID. 103 00:05:40.570 --> 00:05:42.190 You know, a lot of inquiries we're getting from our 104 00:05:42.190 --> 00:05:46.360 customers, is, "I have a company, ABC trucking, they were 105 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:50.380 good in January. What are they today? And what will they be in 106 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:53.860 six months, so we can monitor that status of that business and 107 00:05:53.860 --> 00:05:58.030 ongoing relationship." So if you're originating a credit, or 108 00:05:58.330 --> 00:06:01.210 if you're selling to that credit, again, later down the 109 00:06:01.210 --> 00:06:04.720 road, and the impact of COVID has been pretty pronounced. 110 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:07.840 We're seeing right now across the board about a 10% drop in 111 00:06:07.840 --> 00:06:12.010 941 tax payments and deposits. So what that means is that 112 00:06:12.010 --> 00:06:14.740 companies are laying off employees, or they're in a 113 00:06:14.740 --> 00:06:16.930 cashflow crunch, they're not laying those employees off. 114 00:06:16.930 --> 00:06:18.730 They're just taking that money and having to use it for other 115 00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:20.080 things that are necessities right now. 116 00:06:21.820 --> 00:06:25.240 Sean Murray: You know, you mentioned the off balance sheet 117 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:30.340 liability, and that the IRS will eventually come in to collect. 118 00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:34.360 So what is like the risk for the lender? If and when the IRS 119 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:37.450 comes knocking? Are they are they at risk with their own 120 00:06:37.450 --> 00:06:37.960 loan? 121 00:06:38.350 --> 00:06:41.500 Hansen Rada: Well, there's a few nuances that it really depends 122 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:43.660 on but I think if you're thinking about non bank 123 00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:48.460 financing, the focus that I would have is, is the liability 124 00:06:48.460 --> 00:06:51.130 they owe the government the day you originate, that credit, 125 00:06:51.610 --> 00:06:55.600 large enough, or they don't have the cash flow to satisfy it. 126 00:06:55.690 --> 00:06:59.620 Because usually what happens is I accrue tax liability. This is 127 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:02.050 getting a little bit inside baseball here. But the 128 00:07:02.050 --> 00:07:06.280 government in order to levy in order to issue a seizure of bank 129 00:07:06.280 --> 00:07:10.060 account or seizure of account receivable, which is really what 130 00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:12.610 a non bank lender is going to concerned about, right? Do they 131 00:07:12.610 --> 00:07:15.580 have the ability to pay me back over time, and the government 132 00:07:15.580 --> 00:07:19.810 goes into that only if they file the form 1058, file Notice of 133 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:23.740 Intent to Levy. So we pick that up on our report, and the moment 134 00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:27.700 that notice is issued 30 days from that date, then the 135 00:07:27.700 --> 00:07:31.180 government has permission to levy bank accounts, whether a 136 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:34.270 tax lien has been filed or not. So if I were looking at a 137 00:07:34.270 --> 00:07:37.030 report, the tax card generates, I would say, Okay, this company 138 00:07:37.030 --> 00:07:40.270 has $50,000, but is the government in a position to 139 00:07:40.270 --> 00:07:43.840 actually take that money? Well, you would see if that 1058 has 140 00:07:43.840 --> 00:07:46.960 been issued. And if it hasn't been issued, you know, you have 141 00:07:46.960 --> 00:07:50.740 time, but if it has been issued, and specifically, if it's in the 142 00:07:50.740 --> 00:07:53.740 past, there's 30 days have passed. I know that really is 143 00:07:53.740 --> 00:07:56.320 just our customers a moving target. It could happen today. 144 00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:59.140 It could happen tomorrow could happen the next week. But the 145 00:07:59.140 --> 00:08:03.370 government can issue a levy seizing bank accounts, seizing 146 00:08:03.400 --> 00:08:07.570 account receivables, whether a lien has been filed or not. Now, 147 00:08:07.690 --> 00:08:10.120 if a lien hasn't been filed, and I want to preference that for 148 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:13.270 the real technocrats out there, if a lien has not been filed 149 00:08:13.270 --> 00:08:17.560 publicly, even though they can seize account receivables, 150 00:08:17.890 --> 00:08:20.620 right, they don't have the rights to them. So it's what we 151 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:25.570 call an incorrect levy. And it's just a battle with the 152 00:08:25.570 --> 00:08:27.550 government to get the money back. You can imagine they shoot 153 00:08:27.550 --> 00:08:30.310 first and ask questions later, right? They issue the levy to a 154 00:08:30.550 --> 00:08:33.310 third party, the third party thinks "well, this is the 155 00:08:33.310 --> 00:08:34.960 government sending it to me, I'm just going to send the money to 156 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.020 the IRS." And now the lender has to go to the IRS and say, "Look, 157 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:40.360 if you didn't have the lien filed, technically, that's my 158 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.580 money. I need you to ship it back" and it's just an uphill 159 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:42.940 battle. 160 00:08:43.920 --> 00:08:46.380 Sean Murray: So speaking of liens not being filed, let's 161 00:08:46.380 --> 00:08:49.920 talk about the current economic situation. Obviously, a lot has 162 00:08:49.920 --> 00:08:53.640 transpired. Do you think there's going to be a lot of more a lot 163 00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:56.910 more hidden tax liabilities quitted as a result of the 164 00:08:57.300 --> 00:08:58.830 current environment? 165 00:08:59.920 --> 00:09:02.800 Hansen Rada: Absolutely. Without a doubt. I mean, you have to 166 00:09:02.800 --> 00:09:06.940 imagine that number one, as I mentioned before, just when we 167 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:10.570 look at payroll deposits from January versus April, so the 168 00:09:10.570 --> 00:09:13.690 first quarter, first month versus the first month, the 169 00:09:13.690 --> 00:09:16.870 second quarter, we're already seeing a drastic drop in 170 00:09:16.870 --> 00:09:19.630 deposits. Now, it could be that some of that just layoffs are 171 00:09:19.630 --> 00:09:22.570 occurring. But it also could be when you again, you have a cash 172 00:09:22.570 --> 00:09:25.030 flow crunch, you're going to take care of the squeaky wheel 173 00:09:25.030 --> 00:09:28.060 first. You know, the vendor says I need to get paid, rent says I 174 00:09:28.060 --> 00:09:30.910 need to get paid, or let's be candid, employees say look, "if 175 00:09:30.910 --> 00:09:33.460 you're not paying me I'm not going to show up." So you take 176 00:09:33.460 --> 00:09:36.670 that money and you satisfy the squeaky wheel first, inevitably 177 00:09:36.670 --> 00:09:40.300 knowing and to some extent it's the government's fault, right? 178 00:09:40.300 --> 00:09:44.830 Like if if we had a system where you miss that deposit, and a 179 00:09:44.830 --> 00:09:47.680 letter went out 30 days later, and then a 30 days later, you 180 00:09:47.680 --> 00:09:50.470 got a phone call. People would probably be more trained to say 181 00:09:50.470 --> 00:09:53.860 I need to satisfy that because the IRS is calling me. Reality 182 00:09:53.860 --> 00:09:56.140 is that's not what happens. You may not hear from them for three 183 00:09:56.140 --> 00:09:59.410 quarters, maybe a year. And so you immediately think to 184 00:09:59.410 --> 00:10:01.750 yourself, "well, do I go through the trouble of getting a loan? 185 00:10:02.110 --> 00:10:04.000 Or do I just not pay this knowing I'll make it 186 00:10:04.150 --> 00:10:07.210 [inaudible]?" which is inevitably the lender-first 187 00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:11.200 resort. So I think absolutely, we're going to see an increase 188 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:15.940 in tax liabilities. And it's just what happens in any you 189 00:10:15.940 --> 00:10:17.770 know, we saw this same thing happen during the Great 190 00:10:17.770 --> 00:10:21.970 Recession, right businesses, the income starts to drop, they're 191 00:10:21.970 --> 00:10:25.600 reluctant to let people go, they've got fixed assets they 192 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.390 have to pay for, and they have to find that money somewhere. 193 00:10:28.750 --> 00:10:31.570 And the fastest way to do it is just not make that deposit to 194 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:32.170 the IRS. 195 00:10:32.990 --> 00:10:36.020 Sean Murray: Sure, I think you threw out a stat before about a 196 00:10:36.020 --> 00:10:41.240 decrease in IRS tax liens being filed. But do you think there 197 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:44.540 will be an even greater hesitation by the IRS now to 198 00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:48.080 timely file tax liens in light of what has happened? Are they 199 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.020 going to kind of hold off and those tax liabilities aren't 200 00:10:51.020 --> 00:10:53.210 going to be known more so than before? 201 00:10:53.570 --> 00:10:56.540 Hansen Rada: Yeah, I do. I mean, it just as you've seen them push 202 00:10:56.540 --> 00:10:59.960 off filing dates, you're gonna see them delay tax lien filings. 203 00:11:00.500 --> 00:11:03.260 But that's not necessarily a good thing, right? Because lien 204 00:11:03.260 --> 00:11:06.110 is just public notice, the lien is just saying to everybody, 205 00:11:06.110 --> 00:11:10.580 hey, this person owes money. And it's a manual process still, 206 00:11:10.700 --> 00:11:13.610 right? Somebody has to review it at the IRS, the IRS has been 207 00:11:13.610 --> 00:11:16.250 defunded every single year for the last 10 years, they have 208 00:11:16.250 --> 00:11:19.640 less people doing it. So there's a direct correlation to money 209 00:11:19.640 --> 00:11:22.610 being paid, you know, funding for the IRS and lien filings, 210 00:11:22.970 --> 00:11:24.830 but they're even going to push it out more, because they're 211 00:11:24.830 --> 00:11:28.040 going to want people's credits to stay higher. Because if their 212 00:11:28.040 --> 00:11:30.920 credit score stays higher than people can get loans, and 213 00:11:30.920 --> 00:11:33.590 eventually, maybe the government can get paid back. But if you 214 00:11:33.590 --> 00:11:37.250 think about risk, risk is created not when the tax lien is 215 00:11:37.250 --> 00:11:41.060 filed, risk is created when the borrower fails to make that 216 00:11:41.060 --> 00:11:44.930 deposit, or the borrower fails to file that tax return. And 217 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:48.230 that's when the risk is created. You know, in the point of Tax 218 00:11:48.230 --> 00:11:51.440 Guard's report is to show you that in real time. So while 219 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:54.650 yeah, I do agree, lien filings are going to probably continue 220 00:11:54.650 --> 00:11:56.990 to go down and they're going to push that off, it doesn't mean 221 00:11:56.990 --> 00:12:00.170 collections is going to go down. And that's really what lenders 222 00:12:00.170 --> 00:12:03.770 need to be worried about. If my customer or my borrower or my 223 00:12:03.770 --> 00:12:07.430 credit owes money, what's the risk to me getting paid back? 224 00:12:07.820 --> 00:12:11.420 What's the risk to their cash flow? That's the main focus. So 225 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.390 the lien? And I know it's something that's been going on 226 00:12:14.390 --> 00:12:17.930 for 50 years in banking that like, the lien is so important, 227 00:12:17.930 --> 00:12:21.590 the lien, a lien is becoming irrelevant? It's do you owe 228 00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:24.140 money? Are you deficient with your tax deposits? Do you have a 229 00:12:24.140 --> 00:12:27.260 cash flow problem? That's in what is the risk to me getting 230 00:12:27.260 --> 00:12:29.240 paid back? That's the question that should be asked. 231 00:12:29.930 --> 00:12:32.600 Sean Murray: Okay, so is there another side to it, they could 232 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:37.160 slow play the filing of the lien. But given now that we're 233 00:12:37.160 --> 00:12:42.440 in a situation where national deficits are at an all time 234 00:12:42.470 --> 00:12:47.840 high, right, we're practically doubling it at this point, could 235 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:52.010 the IRS actually become more aggressive with collection to 236 00:12:52.010 --> 00:12:54.020 try and reduce that deficit? 237 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:57.630 Hansen Rada: Yeah, if you look at the amount of money that 238 00:12:57.630 --> 00:13:01.170 should have been paid to the IRS, in other words, returns 239 00:13:01.170 --> 00:13:03.840 have been filed, but the money was short, they're already 240 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:07.440 running right now at about a $350 billion deficit. That's the 241 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.990 amount of money that should have been paid to the IRS and has not 242 00:13:09.990 --> 00:13:13.500 been. So they have a very large deficit to begin with. The other 243 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:16.020 thing, it's more of a philosophical thing to consider 244 00:13:16.020 --> 00:13:19.440 is that when you have a business that's accruing tax liabilities, 245 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:24.120 and it's not making its payroll tax deposits, you know, the IRS 246 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:27.120 will argue that that's an unfair advantage, right? You have a 247 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.630 business over here, A, who's paying their payroll tax 248 00:13:30.630 --> 00:13:34.200 deposit, and they have $100 left over every month to go out and 249 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:37.710 expand through cap-x or op-x. And then you have this other 250 00:13:37.710 --> 00:13:40.380 business that has $20,000 every month, because it's not making 251 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:44.100 tax deposits. Is that fair? You know, are they continuing to 252 00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:48.060 accrue taxes? So what we commonly see is, it really is 253 00:13:48.060 --> 00:13:51.660 unfortunately hit or miss between who the IRS goes after 254 00:13:51.660 --> 00:13:53.850 and who they don't. I mean, we have businesses that we work 255 00:13:53.850 --> 00:13:56.310 with it, owe 15 grand that get levied, and we have businesses 256 00:13:56.310 --> 00:13:59.370 over $1.5 million and never hear from the IRS. So I wish there 257 00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:02.670 was a blanket statement say, here's the true and try method. 258 00:14:02.700 --> 00:14:07.020 It is random. But the reality is, is that the government will 259 00:14:07.020 --> 00:14:12.690 basically-- so we go back a little bit. It used to be 10 260 00:14:12.690 --> 00:14:17.040 years ago, when I started doing this, the IRS would seize assets 261 00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:19.860 and they would put, for example, shut down a restaurant and paste 262 00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:22.680 their tax returns all over the front window, in a sense, trying 263 00:14:22.680 --> 00:14:25.770 to shame people into you need to pay your taxes. Well, they got a 264 00:14:25.770 --> 00:14:28.290 black eye, because everybody would go to their senator or 265 00:14:28.290 --> 00:14:30.720 their representative. And nothing, you know, unites 266 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.840 Democrats and Republicans better than the hatred for the IRS. And 267 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.270 they would yell and scream and say you can't do this. So the 268 00:14:36.270 --> 00:14:39.150 IRS took a different tact, which is they strangle that business 269 00:14:39.150 --> 00:14:42.870 at night. And what I mean by that is if they slowly choke off 270 00:14:42.870 --> 00:14:46.200 the cash flow, eventually one day the business just goes under 271 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.470 and so they take the assets to account receivables, they take 272 00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:52.140 the bank accounts, they can't make payroll. One day that 273 00:14:52.140 --> 00:14:55.110 Subway or some other restaurant goes out of business. Everybody 274 00:14:55.110 --> 00:14:57.630 says "Well, I guess they couldn't make it." But if you 275 00:14:57.630 --> 00:14:59.520 had known that two years ago, they stopped paying their 276 00:14:59.520 --> 00:15:02.160 payroll taxes, the lender would have seen there was a cash flow 277 00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:05.040 starting. So it's kind of a roundabout explanation. But 278 00:15:05.550 --> 00:15:09.000 collections doesn't stop. Right, the government will continue to 279 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.490 fund the machine. And they will continue to try to level the 280 00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:13.800 playing field in terms of businesses who pay their taxes, 281 00:15:13.800 --> 00:15:16.170 and they don't. They just won't do it publicly. 282 00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:24.370 Sean Murray: Sure. So one of the takeaways I, I've gotten from 283 00:15:24.370 --> 00:15:27.310 conversations with alternative lenders and commercial lenders 284 00:15:27.310 --> 00:15:30.850 is that there's going to be a little bit of an adjustment 285 00:15:30.850 --> 00:15:34.240 period in how they approach underwriting and analysis, there 286 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:38.590 was this big rush towards algorithms and big data to 287 00:15:38.590 --> 00:15:42.730 automate that. And there seems to be a shift towards more 288 00:15:42.730 --> 00:15:47.380 personalized underwriting. And I think lending companies and 289 00:15:47.380 --> 00:15:50.680 funding companies are going to be looking to certain data 290 00:15:50.680 --> 00:15:56.380 points to guide how they move forward. How important you think 291 00:15:56.380 --> 00:15:59.770 one's standing with the IRS is going to be in the near future? 292 00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:03.130 Is it going to play like a more important role? Just because of 293 00:16:03.130 --> 00:16:05.380 all, all that we talked about today? Do you think that's going 294 00:16:05.380 --> 00:16:07.990 to be something that they really need to keep an eye on? 295 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.480 Hansen Rada: Yeah, it's a great question, Sean. Um, it's 296 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.090 difficult to say whether it'll be more important, but I think 297 00:16:15.090 --> 00:16:17.940 it's always been important. What you see often in crisis is 298 00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:20.790 people go back to the basics, right? They, they go back to 299 00:16:20.790 --> 00:16:24.480 traditional underwriting, it's, it's, it's it's flashy and it's 300 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.410 interesting when credit losses are so low to say we use, you 301 00:16:28.410 --> 00:16:32.640 know, Facebook posts or likes or we do this, we do that. And the 302 00:16:32.640 --> 00:16:36.360 reality is when you get down to basic underwriting is, are you 303 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.950 going to pay me back? Right? And so, in that equation is, are you 304 00:16:40.950 --> 00:16:44.310 going to pay me back? It's who else do you owe money to? And if 305 00:16:44.310 --> 00:16:46.590 you don't understand, and I mean, the lender doesn't 306 00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:49.740 understand whether the business owes money to the IRS or not, 307 00:16:50.250 --> 00:16:53.670 you got a big hole in that equation. And so I would just 308 00:16:53.670 --> 00:16:56.280 make the argument that I think it's always been a critical 309 00:16:56.280 --> 00:16:59.430 piece. I will say, for a long time, it was overlooked, because 310 00:16:59.430 --> 00:17:02.880 they didn't realize you could get that information. I mean, up 311 00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:06.060 until and knock on wood, but up until we started this business, 312 00:17:06.300 --> 00:17:09.600 you know, nobody had insight into real time tax liabilities, 313 00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:11.670 t was just wait till the overnment files the lien. And n 314 00:17:12.090 --> 00:17:15.270 w you can see it when it h ppens in real time. Did they m 315 00:17:15.270 --> 00:17:17.820 ke the deposit last Friday? Or d they owe money or not? B 316 00:17:18.120 --> 00:17:22.560 cause again, tax liability is n t the disease. It's a symptom of 317 00:17:22.560 --> 00:17:25.770 the disease, the disease is cash flow. So I think you're going to 318 00:17:25.770 --> 00:17:29.520 see many lenders go back to the basics. Does the borrower or the 319 00:17:29.520 --> 00:17:32.730 credit have the ability to pay me back and this is just one 320 00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:33.510 piece of the puzzle.